Wannabe subs - an undiscussed topic?

[Timberwolf]

This has been bugging me for a while, so I'm finally bringing it up. This place is loaded with tremendous resources for subs, both experienced and new. And there's been umpteen discussions on the "wannabe Dom" and how to idnentify one, but I've never once in my time here seen a real discussion about the flipside of that coin, the wannabe sub. In this particular area I feel there's been a bit of a slant, and it would be healthy and constructive to look at the other side of things too.

Just as not all people calling themselves Dominant online are telling you the truth, neither are all the ones calling themselves a sub. Perhaps some of them simply feel the need for attention. Perhaps many of them truly believe they are a sub (as I am positive many wannabe Doms truly believe they are Dom). Just as some online Doms don't do so well in real time, some online subs struggle to be able to do all those things once they make the big move to real life. There are a multitude of issues that have had resources offered for them here, many of those resources of the most excellent variety (I can't tell you all how much I've already learned in my time here) but virtually all of them seem to deal with the assumption that the sub is always the one being honest, and that the sub is always 100% prepared/capable of being what they claim to be. This puzzles me somewhat.

I don't personally feel that I have the experience to give out great amounts of info on this subject, but it isn't one I've really seen broached here much and I think we could do with some input on it from those in the know. I'm hoping those people will offer contributions. Because yes, Doms put a lot out there in relationships too, and nobody wants to end up with their feelings trampled on. Granted, subs are putting more on the line than the Doms usually in terms of the risk of someone getting hurt, but I still think this is a point worth brining up for discussion and I'm very interested to see where it leads. I'm hoping this could be rather educational.

For new Doms especially (and everyone has to start at the beginning), it's easy to get caught up in someone saying "I want to be Yours" or people calling you "Master", or whatever. It can be hard to root out those who are serious and those that are only playing around. As they say in any relationship, it takes two to tango, so here's to discussing the differences between the real and the wannabe subs. I'm hoping it will be as informative as the discussions on Doms have been.

[Phantome]

A red flag that I usually see is when potential sub touts themselves as having "no limits." I just find that hard to believe. I also tend to notice when a sub jumps in and addresses everyone as Master (whether they know the person or not). Just kind of raises my eyebrows. If a sub is more interested in an immediate sex/control situation than even knowing your name, it just screams wannbe to me.

But yeah, TW, I think you have a point. I think that a wannbe dom may have to potential to be more concerning or dangerous, but there are definitely wannbe subs, as well.
-Phan

[~hellish one~]

I also tend to notice when a sub jumps in and addresses everyone as Master (whether they know the person or not). Just kind of raises my eyebrows.

this is also a pet peeve of mine. it is just my personal opinion though. to me, Master/Sir/etc are titles that require an amount of respect to have been earned before i'll start dishing them out. it has been a LONG time since i've referred to anyone as Master. it is such a coveted title that, IMO, should be reserved for that one special person in your life. to see it tossed around so casually until it's lost it's meaning...i hate it. the same goes with "Sir". there are many in here that i greatly respect, but there is only one that, for me personally, is deserving of said title...and he knows who he is. but like i said, that's just my opinion.

generally speaking, i definitely think the wannabe complex isn't just reserved for Dominants. there are many wannabe submissives out there as well. the thing though...is that we are all different. so what seems absurd to me, may not seem odd at all to someone else. but does that mean they are a wannabe? or that i am a wannabe?

[cookiecat]

Master/Sir/etc are titles that require an amount of respect to have been earned before i'll start dishing them out.... it is such a coveted title that, IMO, should be reserved for that one special person in your life. to see it tossed around so casually until it's lost it's meaning...i hate it. the same goes with "Sir". there are many in here that i greatly respect, but there is only one that, for me personally, is deserving of said title...and he knows who he is. but like i said, that's just my opinion.

very well said, hellish one. trust & respect - along with the titles (on both sides - "sir" "pet" - sub/dom) - are earned...

[~hellish one~]

very well said, hellish one. trust & respect - along with the titles (on both sides - "sir" "pet" - sub/dom) - are earned...

thank you cookiecat! and you are right as well. it goes both ways.

[Widget]

I think there are always people who are searching for what they want subs and doms alike. They think they know what they want or how it would feel but when it comes down to it it's not what they really want at all. Some people enjoy playing games online and pretending to be what they are not for many reasons. Welcome to the internet and life.

Its tough for anyone in any type of relationship to weed through the bullshit and figure out what is real and what is not. Its not something limited to subs or doms for that matter. It comes down to your instincts, asking questions and if you don't like the answers say good by and move on.

[Tojo]

Good post Widget.

To me a wannabee sub is a bit of a non-entity. How can you know if you're a sub until you try it? Maybe you go in with the best of intentions & find it's not for you?

Lack of commitment is more of an issue I think.

If both players take it slow & keep their eyes open, realising that it may not work it's so much easier to back out relatively unscathed.

Just my thoughts on a sleepy Saturday arvo...


Tojo

[cookiecat]

as a new "sub" - when i first came here, i suppose i was a wannabe. i probably thought in my head: i wannabe a sub!

i had these submissive feelings & thoughts that i had never acted on & wasn't sure how to proceed. if i had been in a different place in my life - less confident of myself maybe? - i might have "acted" like i thought a sub should act....which is possibly why some new subbies try to jump in feet first.

it can be intimidating - the act of admitting you want to submit to someone & it's so easy to get caught up in all of this....it's intense. especially when you have someone asking you to wear his collar or be owned within a day of meeting. there's a part of you that doesn't want to disappoint!

and it can be scary when - as a newbie - you aren't really sure if what you're doing is right... when i first got here, i saw all these hook ups....someone belonged to another....and i just sort of thought that's how it should be. i remember my first chat room conversation & was asked to wear someone's collar within a few moments. it can be overwhelming. i'm glad common sense told me to proceed with caution.

i'm not sure i'm adding to the conversation...just sort of thinking about how it is to first start out. as in any relationship - especially one that generally becomes intimate quite quickly - both parties have to get to know each other first. talk talk talk. one thing i have gleaned from these forums is to proceed with caution and with knowledge. there is a ton of knowledge here & many many people - both sub & dom - "new" and "old" - who have been very helpful.

[Tojo]

as a new "sub" - when i first came here, i suppose i was a wannabe. i probably thought in my head: i wannabe a sub!

LMAO!

Tojo

[_ID_]

To me a wannabee sub is a bit of a non-entity.

I wouldn't say non-entity, however I can agree that a person who is new to the D/s part of BDSM can be in an exploration phase. That would just make them new, not a wannabe.

To me, a wanna be sub or Dom/me is one who wants to say the words, but doesn't follow through with the action. For the submissive, this would be someone that when asked if they would like to submit yet they don't really. For instance, if a Dom/me were to ask a person who projects that they are submissive to submit to a flogging, and when the activity starts, the submissive is controlling the scene by saying quicker, slower, lighter harder. Not just allowing the Dom/me to do thier thing, so long as it didn't surpass thier pain threshold.

Or as Phantome had mentioned, a submissive that claims no limits, or within minutes is asking to wear a collar.

For me those are examples of a wannabe submissive. Not saying that in either case the person couldn't learn, grow, and become a very good submissive. Those are just examples of what I think a wannabe sub is.

V/R
ID

[TomOfSweden]

I must say I've met plenty of wannabe subs, (I attract them like flypaper) and it's never been a problem. It never gets very far and is a fun excercise. I'm pretty good at spotting the fakes, and I never pass up some good sex. It's not about being emotionally abusive, only showing her the fast and hard way how she's not really submissive. We always laugh about it afterwards.

Learning what you are not is in my opinion just as important as learning what you are.

edit: and then we've got the submissives who think that just because she's into let's say...spanking that she has to accept the whole package, which is off-course false and is nothing I'd like to call wannabe. Just inexperienced.

[Talia]

Well, I'll admit...I'm a wanna be sub...

I wanna be tied up right now
I wanna be spanked
I wanna be....

well...you fill in the blanks


But really, thank you TW for posting this. Aesop has some tips in his Tips for newbies..but not a whole lot..Thanks for posting this.

[Daes]

This topic interests me, as I think there is a vital point that has not been addressed yet.

Majority of subs online- who are in the process of, or already have discovered that they have submissive needs- do not obtain the right 'information'.

Many- including myself (honestly) started in chat rooms, fantasy forums, all things fantasy- and what ends up happening- is that these new subs pick up on what they see in this fantasy. Such as (as has been stated) addressing every Master as Sir regardless if she knows them or not because this is what she has learned.

See, these chatroom scenes reinforce the idea that the way one becomes a good submissive is by putting on an act, by pretending to be a good submissive rather than by doing the hard inner work it actually requires. (But for one new to bdsm, they dont know where to go first, and that is where the misinformation comes from.)

Submission is something inside you, not something you convince others of by faking an attitude. Unfortunately, very few ppl, unless they're lucky enough to run into those few who either have actual experience or are intelligent and lucky enough to figure out the difference between fantasy and reality, realize this very basic fact.

When such incredible ignorance about very basic ideas exists and is perpetuated by so many in the S&M subculture, those people who want to live a BDSM life style need to make a clear distinction between the fantasy aspects of BDSM and the real aspects- and this can be EXTREMELY difficult for one who is completely new to the concept.

Rather than putting off new 'subs' as fakers, its important to correct his/her beliefs about S&M and enlighten. Many new subs dont Know how to behave, they only know what they see in chatrooms and roleplay scenes.

Isolating a new sub certainly does not do any good for her, and will most likely cause even more confusion.

And for a 'wannabe sub' that has been misled, there can be some very difficult situations once she tries to move from fantasy into reality.

That isnt to say there arent 'wannabes' out there.. I know full well there are girls that are only saying theyre subs to get some attention. What I am saying is to be careful and keep an open heart. You never know if that person could just be confused.

[Phantome]

Well, ya know, Daes, you make a really good point, too. If someone is new to the scene, but wants to learn to be a sub, then of course he or she is a "wannabe"....they wannabe a sub! Its the fakers that need to separate from the inexperienced ones. Big difference...
-Phan

[TomOfSweden]

Well, ya know, Daes, you make a really good point, too. If someone is new to the scene, but wants to learn to be a sub, then of course he or she is a "wannabe"....they wannabe a sub! Its the fakers that need to separate from the inexperienced ones. Big difference...
-Phan

What we need in this discussion is a definition of what the word entails. Because it seems to be different for all of us. Wannabes for me is somebody who want's to be something their not. A real submissive or slave is somebody who doesn't run away when their dreams come true. Or to put it another way. I call women who fantasize a lot about being submissive and have a completly unrealistic picture of what it entails, and tries to make reality of it, is to me wannabe.

I don't have any experience of on-line domination and I've never picked up anybody at a BDSM/fetish party, (I always have too much fun). So I've so far only picked up submissive girls in the vanilla world, which means that I've met soooo many girls with a very warped vision of what it is.

I remember one girl who was totally hardcore about everything, and after we went through her fantasies one by one the only one that remained was her fantasy about being raped/gang banged, which was the only one that she actually loved doing. The rest she had fantasized a lot about but didn't make her comfortable. I would call her wannabe, becuase she wanted to be something she wasn't.

I have plenty of examples like this. One girl wanted to be my 24/7 slave. We started a bit carefully but she very quickly became pissed off that I didn't get her everything she wanted. So she basically defined D/s as fucking for stuff. I'm not going to make value judgements about other peoples sexuality but that in my book isn't D/s, so I would also like to call her wannabe. She wasn't into being submissive, only into not making decisions in life.

I could make a list all day. I'm good at meeting girls like this and bad at meeting sincere women who've thought their sexuality through.

...I couldn't imagine anyone actually faking it. D/s is quite a radical sex life. The truth will emerge once they start having sex. What would be the point? They could only keep the lie up for as long as it takes the taxi to go to my place.

[Daes]

My post was more concerned with online subs, as they can be percieved in different ways which can at times can lead to a negative experience for a submissive who's still discovering who she is.

In a (potential?) D/s relationship that is moving from online to real life, the Dom should know her enough to decide if she is genuine about her desire to submit to him. Wannabe girls that like only certain parts of S&M - or what they envision due to all the fantasies and exaggerations - or simply the attention one can recieve from it - can be spotted out.

And though you might disagree with me, you Can be dominant and not have kinky sex. Its just not as fun to most >.> So i dont think its about the sex really, its about the kind of commitment and honesty one is willing to have in a D/s relationship. Also, how much control does she want to give, and in what aspects of her life.

[TomOfSweden]

And though you might disagree with me, you Can be dominant and not have kinky sex. Its just not as fun to most >.> So i dont think its about the sex really, its about the kind of commitment and honesty one is willing to have in a D/s relationship. Also, how much control does she want to give, and in what aspects of her life.

You'll have no argument there. Life is what you make it. Labels are...pretty.

I'm so far an on-line D/s virgin. I have nothing intelligent to say in the matter.

[_ID_]

To help provide solution to the following request

What we need in this discussion is a definition of what the word entails. Because it seems to be different for all of us.

I quote wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glossary_of_BDSM

Wannabe: Someone who thinks or claims to be knowledgeable about BDSM, but is not. Especially prevalent with new Doms.

We can apply that in this instance to submissives.

As far as having D/s in a sexual or non sexual context, or online vs offline.

That is simply a matter of preference. One or the other is not better that the other. To claim it is, well that undermines the pricipals of BDSM.

V/R
ID

[TomOfSweden]

To help provide solution to the following request



I quote wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glossary_of_BDSM


We can apply that in this instance to submissives.

As far as having D/s in a sexual or non sexual context, or online vs offline.

That is simply a matter of preference. One or the other is not better that the other. To claim it is, well that undermines the pricipals of BDSM.

V/R
ID

Ok, if we chose to accept that defintion then there's another problem. A person can be very knowledgable about "BDSM-theory" but still haven't a clue what they themselves are into. And then there's a lot of, what I would define as "BDSM-nerds" who know "everything". It's just that people who've developed as Doms, (or subs) completly outside the BDSM scene, just like me have problems relating to some of the commonly accepted truths.

[_ID_]

Ok, if we chose to accept that defintion then there's another problem. A person can be very knowledgable about "BDSM-theory" but still haven't a clue what they themselves are into. And then there's a lot of, what I would define as "BDSM-nerds" who know "everything". It's just that people who've developed as Doms, (or subs) completly outside the BDSM scene, just like me have problems relating to some of the commonly accepted truths.

How do you express what it feels like, unless you know? How do you express the experience (sights, sounds smells), unless you have seen it or been apart of it?

I beleive these tidbits of information apply to the knowledge question. One can know what it is like to have someone online do what you tell them, thus making online knowledge just as viable as real time.

Additionaly, as has been stated, wannabe can be as simple as the context in how it is used.

V/R
ID

[Daes]

(to me) Online.. everything's easier- and though I have no experience otherwise, I believe the actualities are far more complex, and more serious (of course depending on the dom and sub). But that's a different matter.

I was trying to clarify that labeling someone online as a wannabe when you dont know their honest intentions can be unfair. That is all.

[Tojo]

Hmm, I can't really see that online is easier, in my own (extremely limited) expererience. Are you sure you're not confusing part time D/s with a 24/7 relationship Daes?

That would be damn hard, doing it all day every day.

From what little I've done, I found it a lot easier in r/l, than online!

I guess in a few months I'll be in more of a position to judge.


Tojo

[Daes]

I could be biased- just don't see how someone can have a complete power exchange relationship online. A sub could /pretend/ she has one online, but I just.. that seems more 'fantasy' bdsm to me. Theres no real control there. It just becomes a game. (*my opinion*)

Could start a new topic on that idea, and am sure it would cause a debate straight-away.

But thats off-topic ^_^;

wannabe subs = bad

there... i have suceeded.

[Ozme52]

I agree... and to the topic of the inexperienced vs. the posers... it's the difference between the verb "wannabe" and the adjective "wannabe."

For those who want-to-be subs (or doms) we should all be open and helpful. For those who pose, the 'wannabe sub' (or 'wannabe dom') you all would be much happier fessing up and finding some mentors to guide you in discovering what part of the lifestyle fits you.

[Timberwolf]

A bit of a ramble.

I think online is easeir in terms of casual fun, meaning finding someone in a chatroom to call "Master" for the evening.

But in terms of serious D/s relationships, I've yet to see anyone, anywhere provide any real backup to the "online is easier" claim, beyond stating it as if it's supposed to be some kind of fact. Very few offer much to back it up with. A lot of the "online is easier" thing seems to come from a group that refers to the "chat with someone for an evening" thing which I don't really consider a real D/s relationship to begin with (though I suppose that's a whole different debate). Which I suppose is at least half relevant to the wannabe/fringe group discussion in itself. People (generally) are very willing to label chatroom Doms as wannabees, but with subs there seems to be a lot more shades of gray permitted. I find it... interesting.

In terms of online being easier vs. reality for a serious, full time relationship, I guess that depends very much on what you're doing with it. If your D/s relationship is heavily based on tasking in various ways and reporting to your Master as one example (as opposed to, say, people really into bondage or masochism as examples), the activities you might be undertaking with your partner may not even change much based on the setting.

For me when it comes to moving online to real life, regardless of whether you're talking lifestyle or vanilla, I think it's probably wise to have an agreement about their being a "buffer period" of sorts on first meeting. No matter how crazy in love/lust(/whatever else) you might feel with someone online I think it's probably wise to meet in more of a friends capacity at first. If you then find that yes, the chemistry is definitely still there, then get back into the really fun stuff again. I think a lot of the "online is easier" thing when it comes to the serious relationshps probably comes from people trying to make the transition too fast, when maybe both parties could benefit from that "buffer period".

So to sum that up I don't really see "online is easier" as a D/s issue as much as a relationship issue that spans any style of relationship and how one makes that transition from the net to the home.

[Tojo]

T/W I totally agree with you!



Tojo

[Daes]

But in terms of serious D/s relationships, I've yet to see anyone, anywhere provide any real backup to the "online is easier" claim, beyond stating it as if it's supposed to be some kind of fact.

For a while I’d been contemplating letting this go, mainly because I have a TON to say about this issue and.. I can’t quite censor it without someone missing my point. But I have this urge to reinforce what I stated with reason. This was an opinion; it wasn’t forced on anyone or stated as fact. It was an opinion which I concluded based upon how I interpret BDSM and power exchange... I will just back up what I said earlier with reasonable conclusions and much explaining so there’s no question where I’m coming from. I don’t spew things out of my mouth just to say it, I really do Believe it.

Since my opinion is based upon the definition of the bdsm lifestyle, Ill begin with just that- how I interpret it. (Again, anyone can disagree with me, this is just how I percieve it. Not wanting to cause a debate, only explain my position.)

First, there are two kinds of this lifestyle. The first is an absolute full-time power exchange relationships, living with one another, not as much focused on as the more popular bdsm subculture. This would be the one most are familiar with. The play parties, chat rooms, role play, IRC, where majority (not all) of the participants are involved in a kind of bdsm fantasy life which accommodates for their sadomasochistic needs.

This is where the “easy” part comes in, from Which I had made my statement.

It’s incredibly easy to be an “Absolute Master” if your slave lives thousands of miles away from you, and is not physically there and in your face with resistance, frustration, confusion, and all the other problems that can/do occur during training. It's easy to obey orders over a computer screen or a telephone, as the person ordering you can't really see what you're doing or know how well (or how poorly) you are carrying out each task. It's a wonderful escape to leave all the realities, college, family, etc and just give in to these things that satisfy some submissive needs.

Anyone can pretend or take for granted what they are doing over a phone or on a computer. A sub can choose to do these things not out of devotion, only because of her sexual desire to do so and get off (to be blunt, though that’s not always the case). Its easier to speak about problems when you don’t have to see the other persons reaction, you have the independence to DO what you want when you are Not on the computer 24/7. The sub has a life that will be unobserved by the Dom. It is Easy. It is easy to make your Sir happy, with a few words, or a moment on cam. What’s happening the rest of the time? It’s in the subs’ hands. Total power exchange Cannot happen with this type of scenario, the Dom is not physically there to control this aspect of her life. He cannot make decisions for her. She makes her own.

To me that is easy. You cannot have a 24/7 relationship online. It’s just not possible to have an absolute power exchange via internet.

And, as I’ve stated in another thread “it's incredibly easy to dominate someone from a distance. It's so easy, in fact, that many men who are not genuinely dominant have discovered that if they put on this "act," they can have as many no-strings-attached cyber-slaves as they like. The problem comes when such "dominants" begin, as they often do, to believe their own propaganda and start to consider themselves to be superdoms, even though they've never had any experience in controlling anyone in real life.” ~Polly Peachum

There are dozens of problems that can/will occur when trying to online into real life but I wont expand on that- unless asked- since that wasn’t my original point.

Now if you want to define a real and workable BDSM life style for yourself, you must initially do a lot of hard work, get to know yourself very well, determine what you really need from power exchange, and the type of person that you want in your life. Finally, you must set out somehow to find what you want, to get it into your life, and not settle for anything less. ^_^

“Actually to dominate someone who lives with you requires much, much more from you than the ability to create a sexy fantasy on a computer screen or to assume a stern tone or to issue commands over the phone or in email to an always compliant and willing part-time submissive who spends the majority of her largely independent life without you.” ~Polly (love her)

I don’t believe that bdsm should Only be in certain areas of my life, on the contrary, it wouldn’t change how I am, how I serve from the moment I wake, fuck, or sleep. It’s not something I consider to be “only in the bedroom”. For me, it’s not a game, or a hobby, it’s a Lifestyle that I accept wholly without compromise, it’s who I am 24/7.

I say this because, some only want to experiment with it, and some only want it in certain aspects of their life. To me, that’s not real control. Its play. I say this because That is where I drew my conclusion that online is easy.

An absolute power exchange relationship requires soo much on the Dom’s part, responsibility (over the subs life, emotions, that she is not damaged by your decisions, words or actions), understanding, communicating, self control, maturity, experience, knowledge… theres Sooo much. These things are Not so necessary online, they can be dealt with off screen.

But when you are face to face with this person, you have to really Think.

For a sub, it might be different- I wouldn’t know, I cant speak in that area.

[Tojo]

You're going to make one heck of a sub for some lucky chappie Daes.

I hope you find the one you deserve.


Tojo

[Timberwolf]

Daes - my comment wasn't directly at you more of a general statement. I find your feedback interesting. Most of it I don't find particularly debatable (or at least not moreso than as a minor quibble). I do have a couple points I'd like to address if I could.

"First, there are two kinds of this lifestyle. The first is an absolute full-time power exchange relationships, living with one another, not as much focused on as the more popular bdsm subculture. This would be the one most are familiar with. The play parties, chat rooms, role play, IRC, where majority (not all) of the participants are involved in a kind of bdsm fantasy life which accommodates for their sadomasochistic needs."

I find this, to be frank, too black and white a definition.

This caught my eye, as a representation of a general theme throughout the post: "You cannot have a 24/7 relationship online. It’s just not possible to have an absolute power exchange via internet."

Okay, perhaps so. But I would say realistically, it's a very small percentage of the community that are prepared to take on a serious 24/7 relationship in a D/s role. All of your post is quite clearly geared from the thinking that if it asin't 24/7, it's not quite good enough for you. Now, I've got no problem if that's how you work your life. For some people that works just great. But I think we're still talking about overall a subsection as opposed to all-covering info.

Even defining 24/7 can be difficult. Ar we talking Gorean slave that can't (literally) order a meal in a restaraunt without permission? Or something more... I'm not sur ehow to define it. "Mainstream", perhaps.

This is one of the challenges the Lifestyle always seems to present. Layers upon layers.

Now, onto one of your Poly quotes:
"“it's incredibly easy to dominate someone from a distance. It's so easy, in fact, that many men who are not genuinely dominant have discovered that if they put on this "act," they can have as many no-strings-attached cyber-slaves as they like. "

I've highlihgted that because for me, I think we're defining things in a couple differnet ways here. I don't consider anything that comes "no strings attached" to be a genuine relationship, because frankly I don't see that as possible if you're truly involved with someone. My online relationship, and many others, are by no means "no strings attached' deals. To me, no strings attached goes back into the kind of chatroom "I will Dom sub X that I just met for the evening" thing. I agree, that's easy. But again, just my opinion, I don't really consider that a genuine relationship. Though I'm sure many newcomers go through phases where perhaps that is appealing - and there's nothing wrong with that. Everyone has to start somewhere.

"I say this because, some only want to experiment with it, and some only want it in certain aspects of their life. To me, that’s not real control. Its play. I say this because That is where I drew my conclusion that online is easy. "

Again, I menioned earlier this was a kind of ongoing theme in your post. I can't agree with parts of this statement. By this standard, you just called 95% of us wannabees, essentially. And I'm sorry, that's just not going to fly. I don't accept the position that if you're not going into a D/s role 24/7 that it's "play". In fact I'd go as far to say that's an unrealistic statement to make.

I respect your opinions, but we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one I feel.

[Timberwolf]

To prove I'm fair, here's a Daes quote I couldn't agree more with if I wanted to:

"So i dont think its about the sex really, its about the kind of commitment and honesty one is willing to have in a D/s relationship. "

Absolutely. To be honest, yeah the sex is nice sure that's a fun element, but it's got nothing on *that feeling* that has to do with the trust and respect I've built to this point with my woman.

I will say though that you strike me as a person who hasn't yet had a truly deep online relationship. I know a lot of people have doubts about them. I used to myself. But I know what I've found personally is special, and I'm not the only one. It's true you probably can't do a legit 24/7 D/s online, but that method is not the only answer. I won't say that online = real life, because none of us really believe that. Me and my woman don't. We'd rather be face to face and we both know it. But online can still become something deep, powerful, and meaningful. And there are times when it is a lot less easy than I think you realize, especially emotionally.

It's hard calling anything in the Lifestyle an "absolute truth". But I can think of at least two:
1- Honesty with a serious parnter is absolutely non-negotiable.
2- There are a million different flavours of the Lifestyle for a million different people.