Hell

[thir]

Out of the Haiti comes the question of whether hell exists or not.

Who presented the idea and why? Does it exist? Does there have to be one to make us behave - whatever good behaviour is? Or to make us capeable of living with injustice in this life?

[denuseri]

I fail to see how the concept of "Hell" comes out of Haiti when its origens are far older than than that?

This basically sounds like yet another "is there a god or not" threads.

As much as I hate to quote Wiki due to its inconsistensies and lack of peer review:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hell

Even a cursurery glance through the article will show you the concept is as old as sin itself, and differs depending upon which religion and historical era you study it from.

If my preception of the implication infered from above is correct your question is the same one asked by the philosophical field of ethics.

[Thorne]

I agree with denuseri, this is basically the same as asking if there is a god. Without gods there can be no heaven or hell.

But then, is the reverse true? Can you have gods without having heaven or hell?

It would seem to me that, if you define heaven as a place of reward where your soul lives with the gods, then you must have a hell, a place of punishment, even if it's only a place without the gods. This seems to be the basic concept behind most religions.

And if you have a heaven without a hell? Then it doesn't matter if there are gods or not. Regardless of what you do, you end up in the same place.

What about heaven and hell without gods? Well, that doesn't work! Who decides who goes where?

I think being an atheist is easier. No gods, no heaven, no hell. Just here and now.

[Ozme52]

I fail to see how the concept of "Hell" comes out of Haiti when its origens are far older than than that?

This basically sounds like yet another "is there a god or not" threads.

LOL, I think that was exactly what he meant... the question was raised within the thread about the Haiti quake as proof of god or not. Not that the concept of Hell originated in Haiti, and he started this thread as an offshoot topic.

And as far as that is concerned, you can totally believe in God and not believe in Hell as a place for punishment.

[Ozme52]

For that matter, you can believe there is no god (are no gods) and still believe that there is an afterlife... another plane of existance... or even multiple planes of existance... or even planes of existance into which you gain entry based on the residual "charge" of karmic energy you carry with you.

Carry a negative charge and you end up on the same plane with all the rest of the people who were evil on our current plane.

We have no idea what lies beyond... or not.

[Thorne]

We have no idea what lies beyond... or not.

Try sliding that one past Pat Robertson. He knows. God told him.

[Ozme52]

Try sliding that one past Pat Robertson. He knows. God told him.

If anything, that's both proof of God and that S/He has a sense of humor.

[Thorne]

If anything, that's both proof of God and that S/He has a sense of humor.

Obviously! Only a god with a very warped sense of humor could have saddled the Earth with both you and I at the same time.

[thir]

I fail to see how the concept of "Hell" comes out of Haiti when its origens are far older than than that?

The idea of hell or no hell was raised in the course of the Haiti discussion, and I think it merits a discussion on its own.

This basically sounds like yet another "is there a god or not" threads.

Why? Is an idea of a god inseperateable from the idea of Hell??

As much as I hate to quote Wiki due to its inconsistensies and lack of peer review:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hell

Even a cursurery glance through the article will show you the concept is as old as sin itself, and differs depending upon which religion and historical era you study it from.

I know wikepedia like everybody else, thank you. But I am much more interested in what people think on an individual basis. That is why I am asking here, and not doing a research on the net about it.

If my preception of the implication infered from above is correct your question is the same one asked by the philosophical field of ethics.

Well, this is the philosophical list, right?

[thir]

I agree with denuseri, this is basically the same as asking if there is a god. Without gods there can be no heaven or hell.

But then, is the reverse true? Can you have gods without having heaven or hell?

Why - excuse me - on earth not? It is intesting that these concepts are so closely connected in people's minds, I did not expect that at all.

Pagans have Gods, but no hell, and for many, no heaven either. You simply go back and join the source you came from. Buddhists believe in reincarnation as you deserve, but no heaven or hell. Of course whether or not Buddha is a God is a moot point, perhaps? Theosophists believe in a spirit world as part of learning process before being sent back in reincarnation, I am told.

Some Christians are godloving rather than godfearing, and do not believe in hell. I was born in a culture like that, christianity the official religion that few people thought about, but if they did, there was no hell in it.

It would seem to me that, if you define heaven as a place of reward where your soul lives with the gods, then you must have a hell, a place of punishment, even if it's only a place without the gods. This seems to be the basic concept behind most religions.

Maybe you could have a heaven that you went to if deserved, and if not, you just sort of die? Actually the fragments of christianity I grew up in seemed altogether more interested in life and how to live it like a good person, than afterlife. Maybe you could call that a god without heaven or hell?

And if you have a heaven without a hell? Then it doesn't matter if there are gods or not. Regardless of what you do, you end up in the same place.

As said, Buddhists think you do not end up in the same 'place' even if there is no hell or heaven.

The gods do not regulate where you end up, necessarily. The Hindus seem to believe that they cannot, karma decides where you end up in your next reincarnation.

What about heaven and hell without gods? Well, that doesn't work! Who decides who goes where?

The Hindus would say, yourself and your karma. Except that they do not have either ;-)

I think being an atheist is easier. No gods, no heaven, no hell. Just here and now.

I know, its complicated

[leo9]

I agree with denuseri, this is basically the same as asking if there is a god. Without gods there can be no heaven or hell.

But then, is the reverse true? Can you have gods without having heaven or hell?

As so often, you assume that all religions are essentially the same as mainstream Xianity. But even within Xianity this isn't a given. Jehovah's Witnesses don't believe in heaven and hell in the sense of an ongoing reality, or in the immortaity of the soul: they believe that when you're dead you're dead, and stay that way till Judgement Day, when the saved will be raised to physical immortality on Earth while the rest just stay dead and gone.

It would seem to me that, if you define heaven as a place of reward where your soul lives with the gods, then you must have a hell, a place of punishment, even if it's only a place without the gods. This seems to be the basic concept behind most religions.

There is a whole tract of religions that don't believe in an afterlife at all, except as a transition lounge between incarnations. And the Northern Tradition, while it envisaged great lives being rewarded with a continuation among the gods, saw the rest as going to a cold limbo whether they'd been good or bad. (Reputedly, one of the reasons they fell for Xianity, which offered heaven to ordinary folk without their having to do great deeds to earn it.) There is some evidence that the classical Greeks shared this view before they picked up the idea of hell from the East.

What about heaven and hell without gods? Well, that doesn't work! Who decides who goes where?

According to Hindu and Buddhist tradition, it just happens: karma is a natural force, souls rise or fall as weights do. You can say prayers for the dead to help them to a better incarnation, but that's like magic, a way of giving reality a push, not an appeal to the gods as it would be in the Xian tradition.

I think being an atheist is easier. No gods, no heaven, no hell. Just here and now.

I agree, it's simpler. But only in the same way that living alone is simpler than having lovers.

[leo9]

Obviously! Only a god with a very warped sense of humor could have saddled the Earth with both you and I at the same time.

There's a reason the Greeks said "The laughter of the gods is a terrible thing."

[Thorne]

Why - excuse me - on earth not? It is intesting that these concepts are so closely connected in people's minds, I did not expect that at all.

Not so surprising, considering that most of us are fed those ideas from the time we're born.

Pagans have Gods, but no hell, and for many, no heaven either. You simply go back and join the source you came from.

Then what's the point of the gods? Why worship beings who, apparently, have no interest in or influence on your future?

Buddhists believe in reincarnation as you deserve, but no heaven or hell. Of course whether or not Buddha is a God is a moot point, perhaps? Theosophists believe in a spirit world as part of learning process before being sent back in reincarnation, I am told.

But isn't the point of reincarnation that eventually one achieves some sort of pure state? If it's just a case of constant reincarnation, ad infinitum, what's the point for having gods?

Some Christians are godloving rather than godfearing, and do not believe in hell. I was born in a culture like that, christianity the official religion that few people thought about, but if they did, there was no hell in it.

Sacrilege! No True Christian© ... yadda yadda... etc.

Maybe you could call that a god without heaven or hell?

I suppose you can have that, but then I repeat, what's the purpose of the gods? Aren't they supposed to be the arbiters of our fate? Be good so the gods will reward you? That sort of thing?

The gods do not regulate where you end up, necessarily. The Hindus seem to believe that they cannot, karma decides where you end up in your next reincarnation.

That's simply replacing the anthropomorphic gods with ones that are not. You still wind up with some non-corporeal force determining your fate.

I know, its complicated

Most fairy tales are.

[Thorne]

As so often, you assume that all religions are essentially the same as mainstream Xianity. But even within Xianity this isn't a given. Jehovah's Witnesses don't believe in heaven and hell in the sense of an ongoing reality, or in the immortaity of the soul: they believe that when you're dead you're dead, and stay that way till Judgement Day, when the saved will be raised to physical immortality on Earth while the rest just stay dead and gone.

Forgive me, but I was raised Catholic, essentially main-stream Xian, so that's where the bulk of my experience lies. But regardless of the terminology involved, the concept of virtually all religions is similar: be good so the gods will reward you.

There is a whole tract of religions that don't believe in an afterlife at all, except as a transition lounge between incarnations. And the Northern Tradition, while it envisaged great lives being rewarded with a continuation among the gods, saw the rest as going to a cold limbo whether they'd been good or bad. (Reputedly, one of the reasons they fell for Xianity, which offered heaven to ordinary folk without their having to do great deeds to earn it.) There is some evidence that the classical Greeks shared this view before they picked up the idea of hell from the East.

Still, you have the reward/punishment concept. Whether you call it heaven or not, it's still an afterlife (or afterdeath, actually) place among the gods. And you are punished by being sent to hell, or limbo, or Brooklyn, whatever you call it. Or by non-existence. It's still hell, for all intents and purposes.

According to Hindu and Buddhist tradition, it just happens: karma is a natural force, souls rise or fall as weights do.

As I stated in the above post, this is just replacing anthropomorphic gods with something else. Still the same concept. And isn't the whole purpose supposed to be to achieve some form of nirvana or high state of purity? Sounds like heaven to me.

You can say prayers for the dead to help them to a better incarnation, but that's like magic, a way of giving reality a push, not an appeal to the gods as it would be in the Xian tradition.

It's still a belief in magic, no matter who you are praying to, or for.

I agree, it's simpler. But only in the same way that living alone is simpler than having lovers.

Actually, I would disagree. It's much harder to live alone, knowing that you are the only being responsible for what you do. There are no gods to appeal to, no fairies to trip you up, no golden palace in the sky to go home to when you die. And when the world throws you a curve ball (fire, flood, earthquake, etc.) it's ultimately you alone who are going to have to pull yourself up and get yourself back into the game.

It's much easier to just lie there, whimpering, wondering why your gods have abandoned you.

[leo9]

LOL, I think that was exactly what he meant...

This isn't the first time people seem to have assumed that thir is male. Maybe it's because I used to have a picture of me with some random malesub at my feet. Now I have a new avatar (it comes from a classic Wonder Woman comic), maybe there will be less confusion

[IAN 2411]

After the Abbagavenny disaster in Wales, i think it was about then that i had a new train of thoughts. I dont think there is either a heaven or a hell, i believe our spirits travel around in the earths atmosphere until we eventuly get high enough to drift into the cosmos. Ghosts? well they are freak shadows of the past. Why is it the out of body experiences are all floating above their own body? Well someone had to say it in plain talk. I would like to believe, but i just cant bring myself to believe there is a heaven and hell in another dimension.

Regards ian 2411

[Thorne]

After the Abbagavenny disaster in Wales, i think it was about then that i had a new train of thoughts. I dont think there is either a heaven or a hell, i believe our spirits travel around in the earths atmosphere until we eventuly get high enough to drift into the cosmos. Ghosts? well they are freak shadows of the past. Why is it the out of body experiences are all floating above their own body? Well someone had to say it in plain talk. I would like to believe, but i just cant bring myself to believe there is a heaven and hell in another dimension.

Regards ian 2411

While your beliefs are your own, I again have to ask, what evidence do you have for those beliefs? Ghosts? Out of body experiences? These have all been debunked repeatedly. There is zero evidence, despite perhaps millions of man-hours spent trying to prove them real.

[IAN 2411]

While your beliefs are your own, I again have to ask, what evidence do you have for those beliefs? Ghosts? Out of body experiences? These have all been debunked repeatedly. There is zero evidence, despite perhaps millions of man-hours spent trying to prove them real.

I do not need evidence to disbelieve in heaven and hell, and the thing about out of body experiences i dont really believe in that either, but i used it only as a point of refference, and once again i must agree on your logic. Not only wasted man-hours but money, and the scientists and professors will still be arguing about out of body experiences when they are on their deathbed.

Regards ian 2411

[VaAugusta]

Bob Dylan wrote something I really liked:
"..While paupers change possessions
Each one wishing for what the other has got
And the princess and the prince
Discuss what's real and what is not.."

My interpretation is that he's saying that the truly poor people (paupers) are those who are into the material world, and that the real royalty of society are those who explore the metaphysical.

I'd like to think that thoughts and time on this subject aren't a complete waste. It might just be my opinion, but I feel that optimism lies, if not within, at least next to metaphysics.

As for the main subject:
I'm pretty sure Haiti has nothing to do with 'Hell'. I'm not sure exactly what it means exactly. I know for some of the masochists here maybe purgatory would be it. But if we carry anything over to the other side, I feel the most likely would be our memories, so make them good. Cheers.

[Ozme52]

This isn't the first time people seem to have assumed that thir is male. Maybe it's because I used to have a picture of me with some random malesub at my feet. Now I have a new avatar (it comes from a classic Wonder Woman comic), maybe there will be less confusion

Damn!! I hate when I do that!! First Alex Bragi... now thir.

My apologies.

[thir]

Damn!! I hate when I do that!! First Alex Bragi... now thir.

My apologies.

No worries - it is not an insult

[thir]

Not so surprising, considering that most of us are fed those ideas from the time we're born.

Had problems with the system, but I'll give answering another try.

I doubt that most of us have been fed these ideas from the start. Many religions as discussed before do not have heaven or hell, and quite a number of countries are non-religious whatever the papers might say.

It is not a given, by any means.

Then what's the point of the gods? Why worship beings who, apparently, have no interest in or influence on your future?

Why not?
If the first gods were invented as explanation for natural disasters, the first appeasement would be to try not to offend so as to cause a disaster. A thing of here-and-now, and quite understandable if you food -life - is depending on the weather.
But there are also findings that point to gratitude, to worshipping the powers that give all life.
Both presumably not based on a percieved individual interest from the gods.

I suppose you can have that, but then I repeat, what's the purpose of the gods? Aren't they supposed to be the arbiters of our fate? Be good so the gods will reward you? That sort of thing?

Your guess is as good as mine :-)

[thir]

I do not need evidence to disbelieve in heaven and hell, and the thing about out of body experiences i dont really believe in that either, but i used it only as a point of refference, and once again i must agree on your logic. Not only wasted man-hours but money, and the scientists and professors will still be arguing about out of body experiences when they are on their deathbed.

Regards ian 2411

Well they might find out then.

[Thorne]

I doubt that most of us have been fed these ideas from the start. Many religions as discussed before do not have heaven or hell, and quite a number of countries are non-religious whatever the papers might say.

It is not a given, by any means.

I suppose I've let my Western biases lead me astray. Again.

But isn't it true that, whether they have heaven/hell or not, most religions have some form of punishment/reward system for the after-life? And regardless of whether or not countries may be non-religious, the people in them tend to maintain some sort of religious ideals. Poland, for example, spent some 45 years under Soviet state-sponsored atheism (or more precisely, anti-religionism) and emerged as a rabidly Catholic country.

Why not?
If the first gods were invented as explanation for natural disasters, the first appeasement would be to try not to offend so as to cause a disaster. A thing of here-and-now, and quite understandable if you food -life - is depending on the weather.

I understand the original rationale behind religions, believe me. But when you are finally shown that the weather is subject to natural laws and not the capriciousness of the gods, it's kind of silly to keep sacrificing the fruits of your labors for no gain. And it's wasteful besides. Time spent worshiping could be spent doing something more constructive, or even just more enjoyable and relaxing. Money spent on tithing could be better spent on better foods and medicines for your children.

But there are also findings that point to gratitude, to worshipping the powers that give all life.

But then you must assume that there are such powers, and not just natural happenstance. And I'm not sure what findings you're talking about.

[13'sbadkitty]

as far as i know, if hell descriptions were descriptions of suffering as a result of "sin" and the word sin means to lack, then it could be interpreted as suffering from our faults, or weaknesses. if Thorne, fairytales were to be used for the purpose of teaching a lesson, then the concept of hell could also. i don't believe in the reward/punishment thing for how we live in this life, to me its silly as we all screw up enough. but, if i don't grow and keep growing as a person on this planet i suffer. i suffer resentment, depression, anxiety etc. That version of hell i can stomach. Otherwise as a mom i find it hard to envision sending any of my kids to eternal suffering for anything they did at all and that is the only version of hell i have heard of.

[Thorne]

if Thorne, fairytales were to be used for the purpose of teaching a lesson, then the concept of hell could also.

Exactly my point. Virtually the entire Bible was intended as a teaching tool, stories told by priests and handed down from father to sun to teach the rule of law.

as a mom i find it hard to envision sending any of my kids to eternal suffering for anything they did at all

As a father I agree as well. In fact, I cannot believe that any sane and moral person would willingly condemn children to everlasting torment for sins committed by their parents. So what does that say about Yahweh?

[13'sbadkitty]

Exactly my point. Virtually the entire Bible was intended as a teaching tool, stories told by priests and handed down from father to sun to teach the rule of law.

As a father I agree as well. In fact, I cannot believe that any sane and moral person would willingly condemn children to everlasting torment for sins committed by their parents. So what does that say about Yahweh?

sadly i hope for those who believe in Yahweh that people are spiteful and mean and threatening rather than a God of imperfect love and compassion. i am not sure though, that the concept of a fiery tormented hell came from Judaism. As far as i have been told, Jewish people don't actually buy into the hell thing. Only that once this whole judgment day thing actually occurs that those not in the book remain dead. My mom always told me that but she was a Jewish atheist who converted to Christianity so what can i say about her knowledge? lol this is why i am none of the above!

[Thorne]

i am not sure though, that the concept of a fiery tormented hell came from Judaism. As far as i have been told, Jewish people don't actually buy into the hell thing.

It's true that they don't buy into the Christian version of hell, a place of eternal fiery torment. But they do ascribe to a place, or state, of punishment. And my comment about Yahweh was not so much regarding hell as it was about punishment.

[MMI]

If God had really been perfect, there would be no possibility of Hell, nor would Satan have ever fallen because God's creations, being perfect creations, would be incapable of sin, even though they have free will, and there would be no need for punishment.

If God has to punish men or Mankind, that is proof that neither He, nor Man is perfect. Punishment under such circumstances would be completely unjust.

[denuseri]

Unless of course the system is perfectly imperfect on purpose MMI.

"God made the universe a perfect box...then he put a hole in it so we could see."

Zen quote