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  1. #1
    {Leo9}
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thorne View Post
    I agree with denuseri, this is basically the same as asking if there is a god. Without gods there can be no heaven or hell.

    But then, is the reverse true? Can you have gods without having heaven or hell?
    Why - excuse me - on earth not? It is intesting that these concepts are so closely connected in people's minds, I did not expect that at all.

    Pagans have Gods, but no hell, and for many, no heaven either. You simply go back and join the source you came from. Buddhists believe in reincarnation as you deserve, but no heaven or hell. Of course whether or not Buddha is a God is a moot point, perhaps? Theosophists believe in a spirit world as part of learning process before being sent back in reincarnation, I am told.

    Some Christians are godloving rather than godfearing, and do not believe in hell. I was born in a culture like that, christianity the official religion that few people thought about, but if they did, there was no hell in it.

    It would seem to me that, if you define heaven as a place of reward where your soul lives with the gods, then you must have a hell, a place of punishment, even if it's only a place without the gods. This seems to be the basic concept behind most religions.
    Maybe you could have a heaven that you went to if deserved, and if not, you just sort of die? Actually the fragments of christianity I grew up in seemed altogether more interested in life and how to live it like a good person, than afterlife. Maybe you could call that a god without heaven or hell?

    And if you have a heaven without a hell? Then it doesn't matter if there are gods or not. Regardless of what you do, you end up in the same place.
    As said, Buddhists think you do not end up in the same 'place' even if there is no hell or heaven.

    The gods do not regulate where you end up, necessarily. The Hindus seem to believe that they cannot, karma decides where you end up in your next reincarnation.


    What about heaven and hell without gods? Well, that doesn't work! Who decides who goes where?
    The Hindus would say, yourself and your karma. Except that they do not have either ;-)

    I think being an atheist is easier. No gods, no heaven, no hell. Just here and now.
    I know, its complicated

  2. #2
    Just a little OFF
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    Quote Originally Posted by thir View Post
    Why - excuse me - on earth not? It is intesting that these concepts are so closely connected in people's minds, I did not expect that at all.
    Not so surprising, considering that most of us are fed those ideas from the time we're born.

    Pagans have Gods, but no hell, and for many, no heaven either. You simply go back and join the source you came from.
    Then what's the point of the gods? Why worship beings who, apparently, have no interest in or influence on your future?

    Buddhists believe in reincarnation as you deserve, but no heaven or hell. Of course whether or not Buddha is a God is a moot point, perhaps? Theosophists believe in a spirit world as part of learning process before being sent back in reincarnation, I am told.
    But isn't the point of reincarnation that eventually one achieves some sort of pure state? If it's just a case of constant reincarnation, ad infinitum, what's the point for having gods?
    Some Christians are godloving rather than godfearing, and do not believe in hell. I was born in a culture like that, christianity the official religion that few people thought about, but if they did, there was no hell in it.
    Sacrilege! No True ChristianŠ ... yadda yadda... etc.
    Maybe you could call that a god without heaven or hell?
    I suppose you can have that, but then I repeat, what's the purpose of the gods? Aren't they supposed to be the arbiters of our fate? Be good so the gods will reward you? That sort of thing?
    The gods do not regulate where you end up, necessarily. The Hindus seem to believe that they cannot, karma decides where you end up in your next reincarnation.
    That's simply replacing the anthropomorphic gods with ones that are not. You still wind up with some non-corporeal force determining your fate.
    I know, its complicated
    Most fairy tales are.
    "A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything." - Friedrich Nietzsche

  3. #3
    {Leo9}
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thorne View Post
    Not so surprising, considering that most of us are fed those ideas from the time we're born.
    Had problems with the system, but I'll give answering another try.

    I doubt that most of us have been fed these ideas from the start. Many religions as discussed before do not have heaven or hell, and quite a number of countries are non-religious whatever the papers might say.

    It is not a given, by any means.

    Then what's the point of the gods? Why worship beings who, apparently, have no interest in or influence on your future?
    Why not?
    If the first gods were invented as explanation for natural disasters, the first appeasement would be to try not to offend so as to cause a disaster. A thing of here-and-now, and quite understandable if you food -life - is depending on the weather.
    But there are also findings that point to gratitude, to worshipping the powers that give all life.
    Both presumably not based on a percieved individual interest from the gods.


    I suppose you can have that, but then I repeat, what's the purpose of the gods? Aren't they supposed to be the arbiters of our fate? Be good so the gods will reward you? That sort of thing?
    Your guess is as good as mine :-)

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by thir View Post
    I doubt that most of us have been fed these ideas from the start. Many religions as discussed before do not have heaven or hell, and quite a number of countries are non-religious whatever the papers might say.

    It is not a given, by any means.
    I suppose I've let my Western biases lead me astray. Again.

    But isn't it true that, whether they have heaven/hell or not, most religions have some form of punishment/reward system for the after-life? And regardless of whether or not countries may be non-religious, the people in them tend to maintain some sort of religious ideals. Poland, for example, spent some 45 years under Soviet state-sponsored atheism (or more precisely, anti-religionism) and emerged as a rabidly Catholic country.
    Why not?
    If the first gods were invented as explanation for natural disasters, the first appeasement would be to try not to offend so as to cause a disaster. A thing of here-and-now, and quite understandable if you food -life - is depending on the weather.
    I understand the original rationale behind religions, believe me. But when you are finally shown that the weather is subject to natural laws and not the capriciousness of the gods, it's kind of silly to keep sacrificing the fruits of your labors for no gain. And it's wasteful besides. Time spent worshiping could be spent doing something more constructive, or even just more enjoyable and relaxing. Money spent on tithing could be better spent on better foods and medicines for your children.
    But there are also findings that point to gratitude, to worshipping the powers that give all life.
    But then you must assume that there are such powers, and not just natural happenstance. And I'm not sure what findings you're talking about.
    "A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything." - Friedrich Nietzsche

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