What is so appealing about 'bratty subs'? Is it so bad not to be one?

[thir]

<< is so tired of the expression "topping from the bottom".

Its been my experience that what a partner is really saying when they use this terminology is: Im not as dom as I thought I was and Im not able to handle dominating you so Im just going to whine now.

Or to quote from the wise old crone I earned my stripes from... "One does not complain to one's slave that they are not submissive enough, one either wields the whip or kneels before it."

I do share your annoyance at the frequency that this expression is being used!

However, there are times when that term is actually justified.

You are talking about relationships rather than more casual encounters. In more casual encounters, bad behaviour from a complete stranger meant to provoke a punishment does not do anything for me, except make me seriosly annoyed, and deciding that I won't have anything to do with this idiot.

In an actual relationship, I think it is a matter of what kind of relationship you have. Some are based on controlling the slave and keeping them down, others are based on a submission from the person which is already there. A submission that could never express itself in any other terms than with - submission.

I agree that there are doms who cannot control their slaves - they are not nessecarily not doms, but maybe simply badly matched with their sub. But there are also those who would badmouth their subs if they have problems, and that tells it all..Just as there are subs that would badmouth their previous doms, when they get into controlling their subs in earnest.

I agree with others here that fantasies are there to be shared, however they may or may not be expressed in reality, it is simply a thing a dom needs to know. And also, for that matter, that a need to talk in a 'time out' place it not topping from the bottom. There simply must be a time and place to talk about problems, freely.

[denuseri]

I do share your annoyance at the frequency that this expression is being used!

I often associate it with wanna be's and meanies myself.

However, there are times when that term is actually justified.

Ive never seen nor heard of a time when it was "actually" justified in any way other than whining on the top's part.

You are talking about relationships rather than more casual encounters.

Nope Im talking about any interaction no matter how brief between any given would be dominant and any other individual dom/sub/or otherwise.

In more casual encounters, bad behaviour from a complete stranger meant to provoke a punishment does not do anything for me, except make me seriosly annoyed, and deciding that I won't have anything to do with this idiot.

That's your choice to make...others decide they would rather see so and so get their comeuppance, but if they whine about...they whined, plain and simple.

In an actual relationship, I think it is a matter of what kind of relationship you have. Some are based on controlling the slave and keeping them down, others are based on a submission from the person which is already there. A submission that could never express itself in any other terms than with - submission.

Everyone Ive seen in the lifestyle goes through phases, and desires never seem to be 100% fixed equations, whats considered "bratty" behavior by some is considered "spirited" and highly sought after by others etc; its all a matter of perspective and no one other than a "doormat" is 100% submissive 100% of the time.

I agree that there are doms who cannot control their slaves - they are not nessecarily not doms, but maybe simply badly matched with their sub. But there are also those who would badmouth their subs if they have problems, and that tells it all..Just as there are subs that would badmouth their previous doms, when they get into controlling their subs in earnest.

In my understanding of things, dominance and submission are all "relative" to the participants involved or to the observer.

Please note I never said the "dom" suddenly stopped identifying his or herself as dominant or that the submisive who is being bratty stops being who and what they are.

but...the dom who resorts to making the topping from the bottom statement is imho falling into doing what comes natural in human nature and shifting the blame for his or her own failings unto others, making it their fault instead of seeing that the real problem lays just as much in their own behavior and mental attitude as well and they most certiantly at the time of making such a statement are betraying the fact that they eaither lack the self disipline nessesary to deal with it or the experience to recognize where the problem really is. Making excuses isnt strength...its weakness.

(trust me in real life..."bratts" dont act so bratty when they feel themselves in the presence of what they consider to be someone who holds "dominance" over them and there is a real threat of reprisal that they know they aint going to enjoy lol )

If the would be dominant partner manned up and deals with their own insecurities first and controlled their own emotions they wouldn't have any problems dealing with the bratty sub...as opposed to throwing in the towel or making derogatory assessments to explain their own failures they just note to themselves that dominance isnt yet fully established and press on to either establish it, let things be, or go elsewhere as they desired...all without seeing a necessity to belittle the other person.

When you see a dominants that knows "this" part of these very well established dominance hierarchy behaviors and actually understands them for what they are, they then know exactly how to deal with the so called bratty sub because they understand how the dynamic of D/s really works and they no longer need to make excuses for their own insecurities while interacting with their charges. Its simply a matter of actual confidence and experience at work as opposed to misconceptions of identity. One also will observe the so called brattyness disapear as if by majic when they deal with those individuals.

I agree with others here that fantasies are there to be shared, however they may or may not be expressed in reality, it is simply a thing a dom needs to know. And also, for that matter, that a need to talk in a 'time out' place it not topping from the bottom. There simply must be a time and place to talk about problems, freely.

Feedback without fear of reprisal from any involved party is a very necessary component to open and honest communication in the lifestyle.

[thir]

t: You are talking about relationships rather than more casual encounters.

d: Nope Im talking about any interaction no matter how brief between any given would be dominant and any other individual dom/sub/or otherwise.

t: In more casual encounters, bad behaviour from a complete stranger meant to provoke a punishment does not do anything for me, except make me seriosly annoyed, and deciding that I won't have anything to do with this idiot.

d: That's your choice to make...others decide they would rather see so and so get their comeuppance, but if they whine about...they whined, plain and simple.

see so meaning??

Well, if someone completely strange to me that I have no interest in upsets my tea in my lab, I do not reward them with giving them attention of any kind other than to tell them to fuck off, or get them thrown out - depending on how warm it was!

I also do not agree that talking about topping from the bottom is per definition whining. It is also in fact a description of a behaviour, which is it good to know and bear in mind. For instance, the difference between sharing fantasies and tftb is not always clear at first, especially if your are new. Is sounds clear, but it isn't always so easy in real life, and Doms are also told they should listen.

t In an actual relationship, I think it is a matter of what kind of relationship you have. Some are based on controlling the slave and keeping them down, others are based on a submission from the person which is already there. A submission that could never express itself in any other terms than with - submission.

d: Everyone Ive seen in the lifestyle goes through phases, and desires never seem to be 100% fixed equations, whats considered "bratty" behavior by some is considered "spirited" and highly sought after by others etc; its all a matter of perspective and no one other than a "doormat" is 100% submissive 100% of the time.

Which in some cases also means a change of partners, or a change in partners. People have their ways, and that is ok.

t: I agree that there are doms who cannot control their slaves - they are not nessecarily not doms, but maybe simply badly matched with their sub. But there are also those who would badmouth their subs if they have problems, and that tells it all..Just as there are subs that would badmouth their previous doms, when they get into controlling their subs in earnest.

(cut)
d:but...the dom who resorts to making the topping from the bottom statement is imho falling into doing what comes natural in human nature and shifting the blame for his or her own failings unto others, making it their fault instead of seeing that the real problem lays just as much in their own behavior and mental attitude as well and they most certiantly at the time of making such a statement are betraying the fact that they eaither lack the self disipline nessesary to deal with it or the experience to recognize where the problem really is. Making excuses isnt strength...its weakness.

Well, you know what I mean about 'what comes natural in human nature' ;-)

As for the rest, using the expression tftb does not mean you do not deal with it. In and of itself, it only means that you recognize a certain kind of behaviour. What happens next, depends. Either the dom decides to handle the problem, or he/she decides that person is not worth it, or the wrong kind of person for them, because their style or need is bratting, while you don't want to deal with it that way, you want someone who can learn obedience. A sub who is bratting by need, would not be happy any other way. A dom who wants a bratty sub, would not be interested in total obedience, once and for all.

I cannot see it makes sense to speak in so general terms, as if only one way of doing it is ok, or as if the dom has to prove anything. You do not have to prove, just to be.

dtrust me in real life..."bratts" dont act so bratty when they feel themselves in the presence of what they consider to be someone who holds "dominance" over them and there is a real threat of reprisal that they know they aint going to enjoy lol )

t: actually - I do not trust you ;-) Brattiness is a game, simply. See above. The situation you mention above may be what they need - in which case they are not being bratty really, just looking for the dom to take them in hand - or it may go all wrong, because that is not what they need and tried to signal at all.

If the would be dominant partner manned up and deals with their own insecurities first and controlled their own emotions they wouldn't have any problems dealing with the bratty sub...as opposed to throwing in the towel or making derogatory assessments to explain their own failures they just note to themselves that dominance isnt yet fully established and press on to either establish it, let things be, or go elsewhere as they desired...all without seeing a necessity to belittle the other person.

If the expression tftb is used as a derogatory term (rather than a description of a behavioural pattern) and the dom is using it to bad mouth a previous partner, you may have a point. But please excuse me if I say that the rest is macho nonsense M/K.

Some people do not really want to be dominated, they want to play crime and punishment and cath me if you can. There are doms who are happy with that, and all is well. But if a dom is actually dominating them, the relationship will crash - it is too much, and not what they want. Same the other way around. If a sub is provoking to be taken in hand, that sub will not be happy without real dominance, and would be lost with a play parther.