register for atheists?

[thir]

I have no intention of belittling your experience, but I do have to wonder: Why would you pray to a God you KNEW did not exist? That seems to be a contradiction. And to WHICH god would you pray? Allah? Jehovah? Zeus? Odin? And while I'm sure you experienced something, how do you know it was a god and not just your own subconscious coming to a decision?

Allow me to jump in here, (delayed, sorry) because this is central to a lot of the discussions here and very interesting. How can anyone know anything, really? All we know is the feelings and sensations we have, and IME you can experience things in a very clear way which is not with your logic mind or thinking, and though you cannot explain it in the terms of the 'other' system, it is no less real.

God/supplicant relationship which is not unlike the Master/sub relationship. And it seems to me that, since these religions tend to frown upon sensuality and sexuality in the flesh, it would only be natural for some to seek it out in their "spiritual" lives. Personally, I'll take it in the flesh!

I see your point here. But personally I think that these feelings or spirtual needs or whatever you choose to call them, are not primarily of the flesh, although with us they are usually expressed in the flesh as well as in other ways. But they are not, as I see it, originally of the flesh. I am afraid I find it difficult to make to clear, but, well - the biggest sex organ is the mind - and, as I see it, the spirit.

[Thorne]

How can anyone know anything, really? All we know is the feelings and sensations we have, and IME you can experience things in a very clear way which is not with your logic mind or thinking, and though you cannot explain it in the terms of the 'other' system, it is no less real.

I will agree that it sometimes SEEMS real. Like looking at optical illusions, what you THINK you see isn't necessarily what you are actually seeing. Without some sort of objective measuring system, there's now way to tell if something is real or not. Our minds have evolved to interpret information in ways which help us to survive. Sometimes that means fooling ourselves into seeing things that aren't there, even if there really is no threat.

I think that these feelings or spirtual needs or whatever you choose to call them, are not primarily of the flesh, although with us they are usually expressed in the flesh as well as in other ways. But they are not, as I see it, originally of the flesh. I am afraid I find it difficult to make to clear, but, well - the biggest sex organ is the mind - and, as I see it, the spirit.

Yet, what is the mind? What is the spirit? They are, quite literally, a part of the flesh, electro-chemical impulses surging through our brains. And to be blunt, sometimes you cannot trust these impulses. People who have lost limbs often feel phantom pain or sensations in those lost limbs. These can be interpreted as "spirit" limbs, if you like, but in reality they are simply stray electrical surges in our brains.

As I said, realizations can come to one by other means than scientific evidence. Otherwise we wouldn't know enough in our daily lives to even survive.

I'd be curious to know what sort of non-physical 'realizations' you feel are needed for survival. And how can you determine which are the GOOD realizations, which help you, and which are the BAD realizations, which can kill you? And what of different people, in identical circumstances, having conflicting realizations? How do you determine which is valid? If any!

Ah - you are taking the old testament Christian view of Baal? ;-) Good old bloody Jehova, I am sure he is more safe.

Sadly, the Old Testament version of Baal is the only one I know. But personally, I don't find the genocidal Jehovah to be any better at all!

My big beef with religion is the FEAR it inspires in some people, and that fear is the danger. People with no hell or damnation or vengeful gods do not usually bother anyone else. Not on their own initiative, anyway.

One thing that science has shown us is that fear is a powerful tool for controlling people, either individually or as populations. Religions have become especially good at using this fear for their own purposes. Fear of death, fear of punishment, fear of being different. They wield that fear like a sword, slicing away at anything which is not of their own.

Over the last few years atheist groups have begun banding together, forming localized communities of like-minded people. Churches fear these groups because they allow non-theists to come together in the kind of social gatherings which have always been the hallmark of the churches. But they do it without the fear that the churches need. So when an atheist group advertises that it's "Okay to be Good without God!" the theists react with violence and destruction. They cannot allow their people to truly realize that morality does not come from some nebulous heavenly father, but from within ourselves. Without the fear that such a being can inspire the churches lose one of their most powerful weapons of control.