Out of body religious experiences

[TomOfSweden]

As you can see, there is a slight difference between them. Labeling your self as an atheist makes you dishonest, like all atheists. At least people who believe in god are honest about their views. I know of a few agnostics who challenge the views of theists, and their challenges are usually more informed and better thought out than those of atheists, because they are at least open to taking then seriously. Outright rejection of a viewpoint is a bias that is hard to overcome in a debate, something I know from experience the few times I have attempted to debate someone whose views were so skewed that I could not accept them.

As for your question, that would depend entirely on which Christian you asked. I know of quite a few Christians with a liberal viewpoint that would have no serious problem with that premise. If you do not believe me, just go look at those who want to point out all the similarities between all the worlds religions. The ones who would tell you that just because Jesus said that no one comes to the Father except through him, that does not mean that people who believe in Muhhommad will not get to heaven. After all, they worship the same God.

Ok, so my assumption was wrong. That's good. I explained the reason why I don't chose to call myself agnostic even though I don't deny the supernatural. The definitions of atheist and agnostic goes a lot deeper than that and they're both huge families of various faiths. And they also float in and out of each other. Just like there's huge families of various Christian faiths and their view on the super-natural apparently.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnostic

[Rhabbi]

Ok, so my assumption was wrong. That's good. I explained the reason why I don't chose to call myself agnostic even though I don't deny the supernatural. The definitions of atheist and agnostic goes a lot deeper than that and they're both huge families of various faiths. And they also float in and out of each other. Just like there's huge families of various Christian faiths and their view on the super-natural apparently.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnostic

The only overlap between an atheist and an agnostic comes because the atheist does not believe what he says. I have often said that I never met an honest atheist, and I still hold to that. There is no way you can prove there is no God, because it is impossible to prove a negative. If you are honest you have to call yourself agnostic.

[TomOfSweden]

The only overlap between an atheist and an agnostic comes because the atheist does not believe what he says. I have often said that I never met an honest atheist, and I still hold to that. There is no way you can prove there is no God, because it is impossible to prove a negative. If you are honest you have to call yourself agnostic.

Well that's your opinion. In logic that's actually called argument from ignorance. It's a logical fallacy and I'd be happy to prove it for you if you don't believe me.

The whole problem with the philosophies regarding religion is that they all spring from a basis where they define their position in relation to existing religious beliefs. It quickly becomes polarised. Polarisation can only occur if there are two sides. I deny this is the case.

Apatheism, which I sort myself under, does strictly speaking count as both atheism and agnosticism. It's also known as practical atheism/agnosticism. It's the belief that we should work with what evidence we've got.

Since no supernatural religion has any verifiable proof to relate to, we're still at square one. We can only talk about the merits of the Christian theory of supernatural if we somehow can distinguish it from the Greek Pantheon, Norse myths or any other fantasy theory I just made up now. If we can't, then what's the point? Based on what we have to work with we still have no reason to treat the Christian view of the world as anything but fantasy.

That's why I call myself Atheist. I don't deny that the Christians could be right, but we haven't reached a point where we've got reason to even consider any of it, have we?

The Christian says, "I believe I'll go to heaven"
The Atheist says, "...and this belief is based on what?"
...and so it goes.

If we're to have a theological discussion, we need something to work with, don't we? Something we know is true. A starting point. Since its inception Christian theology is still only at a "what-if" stage. It's a pretty futile project. What if my cock really is a rocket and will go into space when I die? The reaction from anybody is at best a smile. But nobody will take it seriously until they see it happen, will they? Just like with the Flying Spaghetti Monster. This is still where Christianity is at today.

I understand that a Christian community can be a great and supportive and give lots of comfort and fill many social needs. It can provide a great framework for living ones life. The commandments include all the basic human values we share. Those are great to stick to. Why not just keep it at that? Why cling to ancient theories we should have moved on from long ago? What possible good can it do?

[Rhabbi]

Apatheism, which I sort myself under, does strictly speaking count as both atheism and agnosticism. It's also known as practical atheism/agnosticism. It's the belief that we should work with what evidence we've got.

Tom, if you were truly an apatheist, we would not be having this discussion, because you would not care what I believed.

an apatheist is someone who considers the question of the existence of God as neither meaningful nor relevant to human affairs.

If this was truly your belief system you would simply let me believe what ever I wanted, and refuse to discuss it because it is totally irrelevant. I feel this way about some things, and I let people talk about them without any input from me.

All those people who believe in a massive conspiracy behind the JFK assassination are totally free to believe whatever they want. I do not even discuss it with them because I know their views have absolutely no impact on my life or society in general. That is the approach you would take if you truly believed what you claimed to believe, but because my faith actually conflicts with yours, whatever it actually is, you feel the need to argue your point of view. Just something to think about.

[TomOfSweden]

Tom, if you were truly an apatheist, we would not be having this discussion, because you would not care what I believed.



If this was truly your belief system you would simply let me believe what ever I wanted, and refuse to discuss it because it is totally irrelevant. I feel this way about some things, and I let people talk about them without any input from me.

All those people who believe in a massive conspiracy behind the JFK assassination are totally free to believe whatever they want. I do not even discuss it with them because I know their views have absolutely no impact on my life or society in general. That is the approach you would take if you truly believed what you claimed to believe, but because my faith actually conflicts with yours, whatever it actually is, you feel the need to argue your point of view. Just something to think about.

There's plenty of sub categories of Apatheism. Aparently I care enough to have this discussion, don't I? As I said, these definitions have all evolved in relation to Christianity and that's why they have the wording they do.

My interpretation is that I don't give any credibility to theories which are indistinguishable from fantasy. I don't care about them if you will. If a Christian says that they'll go to heaven when they die but refuse to show any evidence for it that I can in any way corroborate....well...then there's not much to have a discussion about. The Christian in this case has based a decision on faulty reasoning derived from incomplete evidence.

[Rhabbi]

There's plenty of sub categories of Apatheism. Aparently I care enough to have this discussion, don't I? As I said, these definitions have all evolved in relation to Christianity and that's why they have the wording they do.

My interpretation is that I don't give any credibility to theories which are indistinguishable from fantasy. I don't care about them if you will. If a Christian says that they'll go to heaven when they die but refuse to show any evidence for it that I can in any way corroborate....well...then there's not much to have a discussion about. The Christian in this case has based a decision on faulty reasoning derived from incomplete evidence.

The thing is Tom, not all Christians claim they will go to heaven. I personally have no idea who, if anyone, will go to heaven. that is not my decision. I am not in management, just customer service.

You really know very little about the beliefs of Christians, or you would not have made some of the comments you have made. What you keep focusing on are the opinions of a few of the radical right wing of the Christian groups, those who are willing to compromise their stated beliefs to support anyone who pays lip service to their hot button issues. Why you would think that I would base my faith on the thoughts of a bunch of hypocrites is beyond me.

[John56{vg}]

You really know very little about the beliefs of Christians, or you would not have made some of the comments you have made. What you keep focusing on are the opinions of a few of the radical right wing of the Christian groups, those who are willing to compromise their stated beliefs to support anyone who pays lip service to their hot button issues. Why you would think that I would base my faith on the thoughts of a bunch of hypocrites is beyond me.

Good point Rhabbi.

I think there are just as many ignorant atheists and scientists as there are ignorant fundamentalist CHristians.

Ignorance is what the root word says, ignoring the senses and discoveries. I belive wholeheartedly in the Theory of evolution, becasue it makes sense and we can see it in operation all around us. And it doesn not preclude the operation of a supreme being, IMHO. It is still magical and amzing and wondrous as a lot of things in nature and the universe.

Atheists and some scientists ignore the operation of this magical force. The chemistry of attraction, The miracle and magic of birth, the prayer that is intuition. And I have had several events in my life that I cannot explain. I choose to belive they are messages from a supernatural force. But just like the Fundamentalist Christian closes his or her eyes to the meesages that say evoluytion is very real, the atheist closes his or her eyes to the very real possibility theat there are forces greater than we are, that are Super-natural.

Again, my humble opinion.

[TomOfSweden]

The thing is Tom, not all Christians claim they will go to heaven. I personally have no idea who, if anyone, will go to heaven. that is not my decision. I am not in management, just customer service.

You really know very little about the beliefs of Christians, or you would not have made some of the comments you have made. What you keep focusing on are the opinions of a few of the radical right wing of the Christian groups, those who are willing to compromise their stated beliefs to support anyone who pays lip service to their hot button issues. Why you would think that I would base my faith on the thoughts of a bunch of hypocrites is beyond me.

Well, that shut me up. As usual most people react to and base our opinions on the most extreme cases. As do I aparently, no matter how much I think I don't. Touche. But I've had discussions earlier where Christians here, that have said that they do believe they will go to heaven when they die, so I don't think it's confined to the extreme right wing. But you've made it aparent that it doesn't aply to you. Soooo.....erm...yeah. You win.

It's wonderful to have one of these moments where the world is a little bit more beautiful than you had imagined just a moment ago. Even though Rabbit isn't with us any longer.