Out of body religious experiences

[John56{vg}]

Alex,

I agree with you totally. I believe there are still mysteries we don't understand. And I hate to discount them out of hand.

[TomOfSweden]

Alex,

I agree with you totally. I believe there are still mysteries we don't understand. And I hate to discount them out of hand.

But you don't value every theory at equal merit do you? It's a very important distinction. A person saying that they believe that there might exist something supernatural but judges it as 99% unlikely is still by definition agnostic. But pretty far from religious and ever further away from any particular faith.

I try to avoid the use of the term "agnostic" since it really says very little. In my experience, usually people use the term because they're just trying to avoid having to think about and justify religious theories. It takes very little poking for the whole intellectual construct to come crashing down.

I'm an atheist because that's the theory that I think is most likely explanation. I don't deny the possibility of an existence of a supernatural force. But I don't consider myself agnostic. Not even almost.

[Alex Bragi]

...

I try to avoid the use of the term "agnostic" since it really says very little. In my experience, usually people use the term because they're just trying to avoid having to think about and justify religious theories. It takes very little poking for the whole intellectual construct to come crashing down.

...

Yes, you're correct, Tom, it does say "very little" about me but that exactly how I like it. I have a lot of dear thiest friends whose beliefs I don't necessarily agree with or fully understand but I will most certainly always respect.

Ok, let me be more specific and evassive at the same time then and say I'm a non-theist. At least I think that's what I am. *ss* I say that not because I don't fully understand the definition of the word but, more simply because with regard to religion, no matter how much I hear, read, debate, and think about it, I really and truly still don't know what I believe.

[TomOfSweden]

I really and truly still don't know what I believe.

Or maybe you know what you believe. You just aren't sure if it's the truth, right?

Anybody saying that they know the truth is a loony. Sure fire faith is just stupid. Nobody knows the truth. Nobody knows what keeps the universe together. Science hasn't even begun to have a comprehensive model for how it works. It's at best qualified guesswork.

The religious debate is whether or not people think that people having epiphanies in deserts had a more accurate scientific model than cutting edge science today. I personally think that's highly unlikely.

Christians saying they "know" that they'll go to heaven are just plain deluded. None of us knows. It's all about which horse we're betting on.

I'm betting on that we're all wrong. Time and time again science have shown that the true theory was one that earlier had very few supporters. Aristotelian physics was the "bible" of all science for 2000 years and today we find all his theories laughable.

[Alex Bragi]

Or maybe you know what you believe. You just aren't sure if it's the truth, right?

I don't know, that sounds kind of paradoxical to me, Tom. I mean, if I knew what "the truth" was then I wouldn't believe it because I would know it rather than believe that it actually was "the truth".

I know (not just believe) that a lot of atheists view agnostics in the same way as gays view bisexuals--"bi today gay tomorrow". That is, agnostics are actually atheist that just haven't quite come to the conclusion for themselves yet, but I don't see myself that way at all.

And, Tom, check out Internet Infidels debate site some time, you will love it!

And in regards to Dawkins, he is as much an evangelist as Falwell and Robertson. I read a debate between him and an evangelical Scientist (Gosh I wish I could remember this guys name, I respected him so much). Dawkins sounded like the nutcase and this scientist was very calm and made his points with debatable points and not with dogma.

I think the evangelical scientist you're thinking of is, Doctor Robert Winston. He's also one of my favourite people to read or listen to, along with Richard Dawkins who I've always found to be very openminded and respectful of other people beliefs--most congenial, actually. Unlike the likes of the loud and obnoxious Madelynn Murray O'Hair who, I believe, (know?) did more harm than good for the atheist movement.