Natalie's Happy Transsexuality Information Fun-Time Thread

[gloombunny]

Genetically women are the base model for humanity, and the male is just added parts. That's why men are susceptible to about twice as many genetic diseases as women, because of the diseases that only attack the male part can't touch girls. While diseases that attack the female part can effect both men and women.

The genetic diseases that affect men more than women generally do so because the Y chromosome is missing stuff that's on the X... (And what does this have to do with transsexuality anyway?)

2) Another theory I like is that in order for gender confusion to arise we need first up very strong images of female and male behaviour. Where certain behaviour is taboo for the other sex, especially when it comes to flirting and sexual initiative, and we simply identify with the patterns allowed for the opposite sex.

Ok, I'm sorry to be blunt, but this is bullshit.

Transsexuality is not about conforming to gender stereotypes. People who identify with the patterns conventionally assigned to the opposite sex become femme men or butch women. Y'know why reputable surgeons generally require that someone wanting genital surgery have at least a year of psychological counseling and at least a year of living full-time as the desired gender? It's to weed out people who think they should be the opposite sex because they identify with those social patterns. People like that usually end up very unhappy after the transition, and if they had surgery before trying it out they're now stuck with the unwanted genitals.

Transsexuals don't necessarily conform to gender stereotypes. I'll take my steel-toed boots over any damn high heels, thanks. ^_^

[Rhabbi]

Ok, I'm sorry to be blunt, but this is bullshit.

Transsexuality is not about conforming to gender stereotypes. People who identify with the patterns conventionally assigned to the opposite sex become femme men or butch women. Y'know why reputable surgeons generally require that someone wanting genital surgery have at least a year of psychological counseling and at least a year of living full-time as the desired gender? It's to weed out people who think they should be the opposite sex because they identify with those social patterns. People like that usually end up very unhappy after the transition, and if they had surgery before trying it out they're now stuck with the unwanted genitals.

Transsexuals don't necessarily conform to gender stereotypes. I'll take my steel-toed boots over any damn high heels, thanks. ^_^

Bravo Nacy, thank you for not letting this pass without challenge. I have heard this before, and I know that it applies only rarely. I really want to understand this, but I honestly think it would be easier for me to live on the surface of the sun for a year. I just do my best to accept my friends.

[TomOfSweden]

Ok, I'm sorry to be blunt, but this is bullshit.

Transsexuality is not about conforming to gender stereotypes. People who identify with the patterns conventionally assigned to the opposite sex become femme men or butch women. Y'know why reputable surgeons generally require that someone wanting genital surgery have at least a year of psychological counseling and at least a year of living full-time as the desired gender? It's to weed out people who think they should be the opposite sex because they identify with those social patterns. People like that usually end up very unhappy after the transition, and if they had surgery before trying it out they're now stuck with the unwanted genitals.

Transsexuals don't necessarily conform to gender stereotypes. I'll take my steel-toed boots over any damn high heels, thanks. ^_^

That's an opinion to. Neither of us can "win" this because neither of us have anything to back it up with.

I personally think you underestimate our need to conform to social behaviour patterns. I also think that only some of them are conscious choices. Most aren't.

[gloombunny]

That's an opinion to. Neither of us can "win" this because neither of us have anything to back it up with.

Well, I don't know about you, but I have my own personal experiences, those of the half-dozen or so other transsexuals I know and have discussed these things with, and medical standards of care backing up my position.

I just don't see how can credit a hypothesis with so many clear counterexamples.

[TomOfSweden]

Well, I don't know about you, but I have my own personal experiences, those of the half-dozen or so other transsexuals I know and have discussed these things with, and medical standards of care backing up my position.

I just don't see how can credit a hypothesis with so many clear counterexamples.

I mentioned the two theories I've read about that I think makes the most sense. They are also contradictory to each other, so I obviously don't believe both. I wouldn't put my money on either of them, but certainly no other. I have them on my "highly interesting" list.

When it comes to psychology, the person who understands us the least are usually ourselves. Wouldn't you agree?

[gloombunny]

What have you been reading that you came across that theory? That second-wave-radical-feminism stuff will rot your brain, you know.

Moving on! Let's talk about some distinctions that non-transsexual people often miss.

Although the words sound similar, being transsexual has little to do with a person's sexuality. I find it interestingly peculiar how many people who are entirely accepting and understanding of homosexuality, and seem to have a pretty good handle on the trans stuff as well, become confused when a transsexual person is also gay/lesbian. "Why go to all that bother to be a woman if you're just going to have sex with women anyway?", or something like that. Well, that's not really how it works. Whatever factors determine sexual preference and gender identity in a person aren't linked that way; just like genetic women, most transwomen prefer men but some don't, or like both genders, and the same for transmen in reverse. It's about identity, not sex. (Well, it's kind of about sex in that I'd much rather have sex with female parts than with the male ones I was born with, but that's kind of a different issue.)

Although, again, the words sound similar, transsexual and transvestite are two different things. A transvestite would be a man who gets a sexual kick out of wearing feminine clothing. (Theoretically it could be the reverse, but in practice I've never even heard of a woman with a fetish for wearing male clothing. Since most male clothing in modern Western cultures is only subtly distinguishable from some common types of female clothing, this isn't really surprising.) A transvestite man might or might not affect a female identity while dressed up, but either way he'll go back to his default gender for most of his everyday life. A permanent and irreversible gender change in all aspects of life likely holds little to no appeal, except perhaps as an extreme fantasy element. (Sort of like how someone might fantasize about being raped but not actually want it to happen.) Sometimes "cross-dresser" is used instead of "transvestite" to indicate that the person is assuming a more complete female identity and has reasons more complex than sexual stimulation, although that's frequently still a part of it.

"Transgender" is a word I try not to use. It was originally coined as an alternative term for what I call "transsexual", for reasons such as not causing people to think that the condition is sexuality-related. Since then "transgender" has been picked up by a number of different people and used in very broad ways to try to inclusively cover transsexuals, transvestites, cross-dressers, intersexed people, bigendered people, "genderqueer" people, women who wear pants, and all sorts of other categories. It's my opinion that the term has been diluted into uselessness. Even worse, it suggests that transsexuals and cross-dressers are together in some category apart from everyone else. I am very unfond of that misconception.

[TomOfSweden]

Theoretically it could be the reverse, but in practice I've never even heard of a woman with a fetish for wearing male clothing. Since most male clothing in modern Western cultures is only subtly distinguishable from some common types of female clothing, this isn't really surprising

Like drag kings you mean? I know a couple where both identify themselves as male but they've got a daughter together. One of them has a beard at the same time as undeniably being physically a woman. Even I find that confusing.

We have a gang of drag kings who show up at our parties. One of them was adamant about getting a piece of my ass for far too long How about that for gender role reverse.

Risking to change the subject here. I don't like the polarising effect feminism has a tendency to have. Just because we've all seen stupid ass feminists in the media waffling on about retarded clap-trap doesn't mean their theories they base their stuff on is wrong. There's lots of feminist thinkers who are pretty solid. All the famous ones I've read I think are. And being a woman in every country in the entire world sucks economically more than being a man. Women have always had less options than men in life. This is hard to argue with, so "radical second-wave feminists" do always have a point, no matter how stupid their conclusions may be.

[Rhabbi]

Risking to change the subject here. I don't like the polarising effect feminism has a tendency to have. Just because we've all seen stupid ass feminists in the media waffling on about retarded clap-trap doesn't mean their theories they base their stuff on is wrong.

Have to agree with you here Tom, but Nat is telling you that this particular theory does not really deserve to be called a theory. I would use this particular definition of theory here.

a hypothesis assumed for the sake of argument or investigation b : an unproved assumption

Except I would just guess that they just assume this for the sake of argument. Just because some of their theories are good, does not mean all of them are, something that I am sure you can relate to.

[tessa]

One of them was adamant about getting a piece of my ass for far too long How about that for gender role reverse.

What does gender anything, reversed or not, have to do with wanting a piece of Tom's ass?? I mean, have you seen it?? It's a fine one. Anyone would go for that ass.

Natalie, this subject has fascinated me for so long. It's good to have your perspective on it all. My thanks.

tessa

[gloombunny]

Like drag kings you mean? I know a couple where both identify themselves as male but they've got a daughter together. One of them has a beard at the same time as undeniably being physically a woman. Even I find that confusing.

Oh, I know about drag kings. It's just that none of them that I've heard from or about do that because they get sexual arousal from wearing those clothes. They generally have other reasons - some are like the inverse of drag queens, doing it as a performance, and others use the term "drag king" but have something more in the way of identity. What I'm trying to say is that drag kings aren't being drag kings because wearing briefs turns them on. So far as I know.

Risking to change the subject here. I don't like the polarising effect feminism has a tendency to have. Just because we've all seen stupid ass feminists in the media waffling on about retarded clap-trap doesn't mean their theories they base their stuff on is wrong. There's lots of feminist thinkers who are pretty solid. All the famous ones I've read I think are. And being a woman in every country in the entire world sucks economically more than being a man. Women have always had less options than men in life. This is hard to argue with, so "radical second-wave feminists" do always have a point, no matter how stupid their conclusions may be.

Hey, I'm no enemy of feminism. I'm proud to call myself feminist. I was just referring to some of the... less-in-touch-with-reality strains of thought found in certain areas of second-wave feminism. Things like lesbian separatism, or "BDSM recreates partriarchal power structures and is therefore sexist and unacceptable even in lesbian relationships", or "transsexuals are really just men trying to infiltrate women's spaces". Or, well, "gender is an artificial social construction, and if it weren't for cultural programming we wouldn't have gender identities, just anatomical differences". Y'know, I actually believed fairly strongly in that last one before I realized that I was a girl despite my anatomy. (Yes, I was thinking about gender theory when my age was still measured in single digits. I was kind of a precocious kid in some ways.)