Perceptions based soley on religion

[Guest 91108]

It's not a question of what makes most sense to me or somebody else. It's not about personal conviction and soul-searching. It's a question of understanding the facts we have, or not being able to grasp them.

So where did I go wrong? Religious logic fails on so many levels, I would have thought it was impossible to fail in debunking it? It's just a matter of trying and anybody will succeed?

But is is largely about personal conviction and soul-searching. If you don't do or have either you are neither spiritual or religous in any form .. and without that level of searching , of a knowing intuitively, then you do have to go with things as you say . the problem is many do go into the searching and finding the answers through various forms.
I do have to say that christianity in my mind lacks some of that searching as you are told what to think but that is another for another thread.

Where did you go wrong? you havenot.. you just have not proven to me that what i know and beleive are untrue.
Each person has their own reality as they make them.
And no amount of discussion is going to change that.
Religious logic may fail in some instances. But you can't possibly say it all fails and others find you credible.
I would say to not look at organised religion and research and go into what it takes to be individually spiritual and one could find what they seek if they are open to it.
I think for you it would be a worthless pursuit as you have a firm thought of what you'd allow in your reality.
Metaphysical to you would be a pointless search.
Oh and it can be measured. For instance search university of California Study on Energy healings... Metaphysical energy from an individual sending from a protected area to a subject and the results. It's not hard to imagine the divine in much the same situation.

Conversations like this all over the net...

No One will ever credibly claim victory over another as long as one's personal faith and beliefs can be shown to found exhibited in daily life.

Just my thoughts on it from an eclectic pagan. smiles
Even I know of the univeral truths that form the basis of most religions. and do not push one over another.
( though personally i do have perferences )

And that is much further into this topic on this board than I ever expected to talk about it.
So pull what you can or not from it,
As I'm done here.

[TomOfSweden]

Where did you go wrong? you havenot.. you just have not proven to me that what i know and beleive are untrue.
Each person has their own reality as they make them.
And no amount of discussion is going to change that.
Religious logic may fail in some instances. But you can't possibly say it all fails and others find you credible.
I would say to not look at organised religion and research and go into what it takes to be individually spiritual and one could find what they seek if they are open to it.
I think for you it would be a worthless pursuit as you have a firm thought of what you'd allow in your reality.
Metaphysical to you would be a pointless search.

You're mixing up the spiritual side of religion with the supernatural claims. I'm talking about things like; the existance of heaven or making claims about the nature of god. That is not a metaphysical discussion. That is a scientiffic discussion. If we believe it we must have a reason to believe it, right? We must have arguments based on something. We can then weigh the weight of these arguments against each other and reach a truth. But if we have nothing but hearsay and vague feelings then we don't have much to weigh against anything, right? If every religion use the same arguments for their case then it's proof that they have equal or less validity, right? We extremly little of how the universe works, and making any steadfast claims, (like christianity is) is being very arrogant, (and lazy).

Off-course you could say that it's only about faith and that you don't want to test your religion. But that's just like the people who vote in an election when they know nothing or extremly little about any of the candidates, and just vote for who ever has the prettiest slogan. It damages the whole idea of democracy. In the same way, people who have faith without thinking pervert the common dialogue and fill the ether with unsubstantiated garbage, making it harder for serious ideas to come through. Ideas from people who have done their homework.

What you are talking about is the subject of morals, ethics and purpose of life. That's not what I've been talking about here at all. It's an interesting subject but our discussions here have been stuck on a hopelessly low level.

We don't have different realities. We have different interpretations of the same reality. It's a major difference.

edit: Metaphysics is the discussion about the discussion of how the universe works. ie, how can we work out it's inner workings. Saying that science can't give us all the answers is fair. So much is obvious. But from that conclude that there is another better way that involves praying and doing a lot of soul searching is just bollocks. Sure, praying might give us a deeper understanding of the world, but how do we know that? How do we bring it from the realm of plain fantasy and guesswork into a world where we can draw any conclusions about it what so ever? How do we know that a religious conviction is any different from convictions derived at from ordinary common sense, hunches or dreaming. We have no idea at all. Not much to base a faith on.

But you can't possibly say it all fails and others find you credible.

It's not a question of finding me credible. I'm not asking anybody to trust me. I'm just asking religious people to do the work. How much in religion can you work out? How much is blind faith? Which evidence is valid? How do you know that?

I'm pretty fucking far from a prophet.