Coming to Terms

This is based off a thought that just cruised by my mind as a result of some things I've been going through lately.

I've been into bdsm for about 2 years or so now and I feel much more comfortable and secure with myself as a submissive than I ever have before. There were times when I just couldn't come to grips with being a submissive. Or even wanting to be one. It was a hard journey for me. As it is, I imagine, for most if not all.

But my question is... do you think it is harder for submissives to come to terms with being a submissive or for dominants to come to terms with being a dominant?

I'm not so sure myself. Granted our general culture seems to value the dominant traits more, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's easier. Also, does gender affect the difficulty of the journey?

Thoughts?

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Originally Posted by Pandora's Box

Granted our general culture seems to value the dominant traits more, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's easier.

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Society likes sheep. Society likes the submissive personality. Society likes the people that can be told what to do, where to shop and what to buy.

The dominant personality goes against society. The dominant personality shops where it wants, does what it wants and enjoys freedom from "the rules."

Now before everyone gets all over me for implying that submissives may be sheep and that dominants go against the grain, allow me to point out that I am refering to society and personality, not the actual dominant and submissive archetypes belayed in BDSM relationships, etc.

In a sense more specific to the other quesions asked in the above post, there are several threads in these forums, both by dominants and submissive, expressing how they deal or don't deal so well with the world and their role in it. Everything has been expressed here already, ranging from how abuse my be a factor in peoples' submissive personalities to how a person can be very dominant at the workplace, but completely submissive at home to how hard accepting the responsibilities of being dominant can be.

Essentially, how people feel about being dominant or submissive, how they deal with the reasons behind their dominance or submission and how they feel society reflects upon their choices and roles is as individual as the people that wonder about these things and ask these questions. In other words, as someone very close to me once said in a thread long ago: "Ask a hundred people, and you'll get a hundred different answers."

I can somewhat understand what you mean but from my own perspective.

There have been times when I have asked myself am I really what I say I am. Then I begin to think about the areas that I gain a sense of satatisfaction, and just what feels right. I keep on comming to the same conclusion, I am what I am claiming to be. I am a Domminant/Master, what ever word you want to call it but it is who I am.

I do hope to have many eventful, experiences in the life.

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Originally Posted by Pandora's Box

This is based off a thought that just cruised by my mind as a result of some things I've been going through lately.

I've been into bdsm for about 2 years or so now and I feel much more comfortable and secure with myself as a submissive than I ever have before. There were times when I just couldn't come to grips with being a submissive. Or even wanting to be one. It was a hard journey for me. As it is, I imagine, for most if not all.

But my question is... do you think it is harder for submissives to come to terms with being a submissive or for dominants to come to terms with being a dominant?

I'm not so sure myself. Granted our general culture seems to value the dominant traits more, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's easier. Also, does gender affect the difficulty of the journey?

Thoughts?

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Not to waffle about this, but my response would be "it depends". If you were raised to be submissive, as most kids who went to parochial schools seem to have been in the '40's and '50's, taking the dominant roll is VERY hard; speaking from my own experience. I've been in the middle of deciding a place for several years, unsure that I could BE a Dom because it wouldn't be 'nice'. Now I know that Dom is who I am, and that's for me.

Knowing others who are heavily into winning everything, being a sub has to be a major epiphany. But those folks need to realize there are different ways of winning: if being a sub makes you feel great and makes the Dom / Domme feel great, that's a win! Pleasing yourself and others is always a good thing, IMHO.

I know for me it was difficult to come to grips with some of the aspects of this lifestyle. Being generally dominant was easy for me as my childhood dictated that I had to be (parental issues that don't need to be talked about here). But coming to terms with getting off on causing pain and humiliation was difficult. I was raised to be respectful and honorable to all and I felt like something was wrong with me. It wasn't until I fully realized that I was only giving what was wanted and wasn't forcing myself on anyone that I could begin to look at it as a positive thing. I couldn't say which is more difficult (submission or dominance) as I have had conversations with submissive people who have had the same problems. They feel like they are sick in some way to want someone to inflict pain and humiliation and whatever else on them. I do believe gender has an affect, but not necessarily a static one. What I mean is some women may find it easy to slip into submission because of their culture, but others in the same culture may feel like they are betraying themselves and their fellow women by being submissive. The same goes for men. Submitting has got to be difficult for a male in most cultures that I know of because of the expectations placed on us. Being dominant can also be a problem for both sexes because of preconceived notions. Many dominants go through what I went (and occasionally still do go) through, doubting themselves and feeling like they are doing something morally wrong. I don't think there is an easy answer to this question and as you suggest it is a journey each of us must make and fulfill to our personal satisfaction.

Here's to the journey. ;) :bondage:

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Originally Posted by Caine

Here's to the journey. ;) :bondage:

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Cheers to that!

Personally, it's taking me quite a while to come to terms with being submissive. I was raised to be outgoing and to stand up for myself and just to believe that I shouldn't let anybody talk down to me. My parents were very persistent in giving me this message, so it's been difficult to realize and accept that wanting to be/being submissive is not necessarily a bad thing.

It would almost definitely have been easier for me to accept if I had discovered dominant tendencies, due to both society in general and the way I was raised(and it would have been better for my last relationship), but alas, it was not to be.

I know without a doubt that I am submissive, but it is diffiult to accept that, yes, I want to be controlled and humiliated, and no, there isn't anything wrong with me because of it. It's hard, but i'm learning, and this forum is helping so much in that.

(now to wait and see how long it takes me to 'come to terms' to the point of actually attempting any sort of real D/s interaction. i'm really a bit of a chicken)

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Originally Posted by vistana

Cheers to that!

Personally, it's taking me quite a while to come to terms with being submissive. I was raised to be outgoing and to stand up for myself and just to believe that I shouldn't let anybody talk down to me. My parents were very persistent in giving me this message, so it's been difficult to realize and accept that wanting to be/being submissive is not necessarily a bad thing.

It would almost definitely have been easier for me to accept if I had discovered dominant tendencies, due to both society in general and the way I was raised(and it would have been better for my last relationship), but alas, it was not to be.

I know without a doubt that I am submissive, but it is diffiult to accept that, yes, I want to be controlled and humiliated, and no, there isn't anything wrong with me because of it. It's hard, but i'm learning, and this forum is helping so much in that.

(now to wait and see how long it takes me to 'come to terms' to the point of actually attempting any sort of real D/s interaction. i'm really a bit of a chicken)

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Cheers.

and just remember two phrases.

The greater the risk the greater the reward, and No guts no glory.

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Originally Posted by Nightstriker

The greater the risk the greater the reward, and No guts no glory.

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Interesting. i like those phrases, NS, thanks.

Right, on to Pandora's quesion. my general thought on this subject and the one with which i'm gonna start my ramblings on a subject which fascinates me, is that submissives find it harder to come to terms with who they are, but dominants should find it harder. Make any sense? Probably not. LOL.

Firstly, the fact that submissivesness and any associated words are pejoratives in modern society, cannot, IMO, be overlooked. Dominance, control, power...these may not always be ideal words, but they don't have the same immediate negative personality connotations as submissive, powerLESS etc and i think, as a group, society is much less aux fait with the latter. No one ever questions why someone seeks promotion to a managerial position...but they do question why someone would want to stay in a position where they answered to someone else, if one had the opportunity for promotion.

i recently told a small number of people to whom i am very close about my interest/involvement with BDSM...and what they seemed most suprised (shocked?) by and that which they seemed most embarrassed by - was the fact that i was submissive. This didn't come as a suprise to me, in fact, i forsaw it and chose to leave 'that' bit till the very end of the tale.

Perhaps it's the very term submissive that's the problem, because i'm not entirely convinced it accurately conveys the set up in a Ds relationship, that being one person passing their power to another, based on a pre-arranged set of proposals.

In terms of gender identity, certainly i think it's the case that even in modern times, certain traits threaten male or female gender identity. i always use the analogy of poor hygiene....whereas it's completely unappealing for either gender to have poor levels of cleanliness, for men, it is always more likely to be a bit of a laugh and a joke, for women, it threatens the very notion of femininity....so, to, certain qualities are not always 'ok', but they're more accepted, depending on the persons gender. However, since the growth of feminisim and general empowering of women, i believe women and men alike have been left slightly in no-mans land (no pun intended) in terms of what they are supposed to be. (Incidentally, i personally believe that through feminism, women have in some respects been slightly painted into a corner and that this goes some way to explaining the relatively high proportion of women who have submissive fantasies). Women are actively encouraged (rightly) not to kowtow to anyone, to question anything people say etc..this is ingrained in us and therefore a desire to submit to someone is bound to cause some level of confusion.

i think what doesn't help matters, is a general misconception that all subs other than yourself (whoever) are so much more submissive...that you're the only one who is capable of thinking for yourself, still has quite strong opinions that they are more than happy to voice etc....certainly i felt like that for a long time. This can only be alleviated by getting to know other submissives. The people i encounter on these forums and in private chat have helped me immensely to better understand myself...it's, like..we can't all be 'bad' subs! *smiles*

i also think there is a notion that being dominant is a 'natural' part of the human condition, in a darwinian type sense..and to be submissive seems, therefore, to be UNnatural. Personally, i believe the opposite, i believe that traits which most subs manifest are vitally important for the equalibrium of society. On the same subject, i don't think Ds itself is remotely unnatural and the increase of it is merely an indicator that we are attempting to replicate something historical (if not slightly animalistic) that society would have us try to irradicate, that being the exchange of power between two individuals.

Finally, to go back to what i said about subs finding it harder but doms SHOULD find it harder....i basically think, based on what i've already said, that being dominant, whilst on the face of it, is preferable, actually requires a lot of consideration. i say this from the POV of the responsibility that it carries (which, btw, is possibly the fine line between not having a problem coming to terms with playing around with being dominant, but it being harder to get to grips with actually BEING a dominant) but also based on the hidden undertones of the concept. This is to say that whilst on the face of it 'dominant', 'control', 'power' may give the apperance of being preferable, scratch the surface and i think they require a lot of thought. In addition, whilst i am very fond of many subs and doms alike, i generally think that the human traits and qualities that most submissives have are more endearing than many traits that go hand in hand with being dominant. i say this not in a nasty way and i say it not just for bombastic idiots marching round BDSM chat rooms, but for all real dominants, including my own.

Right, i'll shush now, thanks for bringing this up Pandora, it's a really interesting one.

sl

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Originally Posted by slavelucy

Interesting. i like those phrases, NS, thanks.

Right, on to Pandora's quesion. my general thought on this subject and the one with which i'm gonna start my ramblings on a subject which fascinates me, is that submissives find it harder to come to terms with who they are, but dominants should find it harder. Make any sense? Probably not. LOL.
sl

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Not a problem lucy and your statment about accepting that you are a Dom being more difficult is far to true.

I myself when I was first looking into things asked myself multiple times, "Is this right" I mean with the fact of being domminant you can be seen as removing someones human rights. In our society this is seen as a bad, and when it is done to women, and increadibly big bad.

The one big thing that helped me understand things is the last part of , Safe, Sane, Consensual. The realiziation that all of the activities and the things that go on, should be consensual, and often that they are, and that both sides want this and that wanting these things are not a bad thing to want.

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Originally Posted by Nightstriker

Cheers.

and just remember two phrases.

The greater the risk the greater the reward, and No guts no glory.

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i will. Those are awesome phrases, very motivational :D
I've heard them both before, but thanks for sharing now. Maybe it'll kickstart me into doing something once exams are over.

In very broad terms I think that the 'dominant' nature of our society tends to make it easier for a Dominant to come to terms with what he/she is, rather than for a submissive. But that said, this is also a society that frowns (rightfully) on abuse of any sort and from a Dominant's point of view it is that conundrum which may cause problems.

From a personal perspective, for years I wasn't even sure what I was or what I wanted. Almost everything I fantasied about never quite 'hit the spot'. Rape, forced sex, various types of humiliation, etc, all wandered their way through my mind for year after year. A vanilla wife was of little help.

Then I found this site and I also found the most amazing submissive that could ever be. Online at first, and now in real life (all too infrequently at the moment), she helped (taught ?) me so much. I now know exactly what I am and what I need.

I had never had any trouble coming to terms with my general fantasies and wishes, no problem with the concept of BDSM, or of power exchange but, where exactly I fitted into this whole thing, that was another matter. As it became apparent to me exactly what I am, as she showed me the truth about myself, I often looked at words in an IM with her and stopped short, thinking that she was wrong.

But now, having met (and played with) her in real life, I could not be more at ease with myself and my life. Because I tend to do things without much thought sometimes (she would say often !!!) I do not plan much in the way of our scenes. Meeting her in real life was a continuation of this and the way that everything I did, and her reactions to me, seemed so natural meant that any lingering subconcious doubts are gone.

So .. to answer your question Pan, from my personal POV I had no problem coming to terms with what I am, but only once I had discovered exactly what it was that I needed. And that was so simple I cannot imagine why it took so many decades before I realised. What I needed was that whatever I did, whether I gave my submissive pain, pleasure, humilation, love, etc ... it was just so amazingly good provided that she wanted it. Consent was what was missing from all my previous thoughts on the subject.



Re-reading this I am not sure if I havent actually spammed your thread - sorry if I have. Still wtf, a few ramblings are good for the soul.

:spammer:

Oooh! Are we doing cliches? My two favorites are, "If you're going to go, go all the way," and "If you're going to be a bear, be a grizzly."

In response to slavelucy's comment that 'submissive' isn't a terribly good term to describe what submissives do, and that there are perjorative connotations attached to it, I submit for your approval:
Leader -- one to whom power is transfered
Follower -- one who consentually transfers power
Hostage -- one who non-consentually transfers power

Hope those help! ;)

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Originally Posted by Curtis

I submit for your approval:

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*raises an eyebrow* i gratefully accept your submission, dear. ;)

Thank you for those suggestions, Curtis. Although, if we're talking what submissives 'do'....perhaps 'wanker' would be fitting in some little slut's cases...er..so i hear, i wouldn't know, of course. *whistles innocently* :D

sl

"If you're going to be a bear, be a grizzly."

Hmm...*remembers 'The Cannonball Run' momentarily*..

Well said lucy, I completely agree with your take on naive concepts of the valuation of submission and dominance. In real life power is valued whilst being impotent or a pawn in any social structure is seen as disadvantage ( this is probably even more polarized if you've had little real responsibility ). It's an easy mistake to transpose the two concepts and their separation is the first step I would take in having any kind of BDSM discussion with someone who is unaware. What you do when you play is not the same as how you conduct your business.:smackbum:

It was very hard for me to accept being domme since i was (am being?) raised in semi-rigid sex based roles. I used to find it a lot easier (and didnt question) being sub...right up until i started learnning about gender pltx and feminism. As i started to become more liberal (and more aware) i was able to accept that i was a domme in most situations, and I wouldnt have it any other way!

When I entered the lifestyle, I was subbing. While it was difficult for me to accept that there were things I needed that didn't not fall within the norm, I believe that it was more difficult for me to come to terms with my intriniscally Dominant and yes, sadistic nature. Dominance came rather easily, but it was difficult for me to accept that I enjoyed and got off on causing someone pain. As someone who is kind, generous and looks out for the welfare of others personally and professionally, this was a grand leap.

However, once I found this place, I am at peace....more so than when I was subbing.

I do believe that I began as a submissive because what I was reading, learning and discovering drew me to the lifestyle and based on my gender, submitting was the "natural" first step. Of course, I now realize that was my vanilla thinking guiding me.

It is a comfort to be who and what I am freely and without reservation, but has taken several years to get to this place.

:)