Something I noticed while reading stories.

[Finding_Fantasy]

I definitely meant in real life terms. I have been in an abusive relationship, though not a BDSM one where my ex kicked me when I was down...after he was the one who put me there. So I guess I kind of thake that sort of stuff personally. I probaboy shouldn't but I do.

As for brutality in writing? Well, it doesn't bother me. If it did, I would be a hypocrite. I have quite a fair amount of violence in the stories that I write. For example, the history of one of my characters was beaten, gang raped, then soaked in kerosene and set on fire. With another, her husband had been poisoning her for years until she "betrayed" him and he snapped her neck



So all in all, I don't have a problem with violence as long as it is fiction, if that makes sense. But real violebce, treating someone like dirt. No thanks.

[veru_skjava]

What I was discussing Boccacio was how I tend to dislike brutal violence incorporated with torture.

Now that may make no sense, as most of the "torture" I truely enjoy is down right extreme!!

*blushes* maybe that is a different subject...

Now villians, as in men with men, and angry men with women are another issue all together, though why waste brutality on a woman in a story when she can be tortured?

Giggles...

I have been up toooo long and am not making sense to myself, I should come back to this another time, but wanted to make that comment while it was in my mind.

veru skjava

[Finding_Fantasy]

Torture as we definae it today is not what it once was either. Torture in the medieval era was brutality today. For example, if you spoke out against your King or your God you were branded a heretic. If found guilty, you were put into a heretic's fork. It's a particualrly nasty device that was worn by the convicted. It's a collar that locks around you neck. In the front are two prongs, like a bbq fork, that are thrust up into the person's lower jaw. With this in place, the heretic is no longer able to speak...nor eat or anything else and eventually dies of starvation.

It's funny how soft we have become as humans, isn't it? There is so much which we consider as brutal in our civilized age that was considered normal punishment way back when.

[nikki]

Boccaccio Wrote:
"Do other authors get similar comments? Does anyone ever heed them? Or do you just continue writing in your own way as best you can?"


From the sublime to the ridiculous, i get all sorts of 'advice'...first instinct was to 'obey' (naturally!) but then i started to realise that every person that mailed me wanted something different..some wanted more violence, some less, etc. etc...

now, i go with what feels right for me, and if i get mail that actually inspires me, in that i feel that the suggestions work, i use them, i love to hear what people want, but rarely heed it, if i did, i'd only have a couple of happy readers!

Can i take this opportunity to say that, unfortunately, the best reviews i've ever had come to me via private mail, which is fine, but when a story gets pretty well slated publicly, whilst adored privately, it puts the author in a predicament, i had 2 public reviews of 'Symon and Louise' that suggested i re-write, but more than 10 people privately contacted me to ask that i didn't... what's a girl to do???

nikki

[veru_skjava]

Can i take this opportunity to say that, unfortunately, the best reviews i've ever had come to me via private mail, which is fine, but when a story gets pretty well slated publicly, whilst adored privately, it puts the author in a predicament, i had 2 public reviews of 'Symon and Louise' that suggested i re-write, but more than 10 people privately contacted me to ask that i didn't... what's a girl to do???

Reviewers are very valuable, maybe authors could suggest those that email them register and review?

Just a thought...

veru skjava

[nikki]

ideally, yes.... but many people don't wish to declare publicly that they like what they've read, maybe due to the nature/content of the story, or just plain shy. i would rather have private input than none at all, and half of those who do mail me privately are already registered...maybe the story i refered to was a bad example, as principle character is somewhat young....apparently

nikki

[Finding_Fantasy]

Now, I don't write exotic stories, I just don't have the right knack for them, but I am a writer. I usually go for what the masses suggest, what I mean is, if a whole lot of people suggest the same thing, then perhaps I will take a second look at it.

It is tough being a writer because there are some people who are overly critical. Some are that way because they want to help but others are because they are just plain old cranky...or jealous of your talent All in all I try to take the good with the bad whether it is public or not. Granted not a whole lot have read my stuff because the only place I have it is on my homepage and no one ever writes me from there to tell me how it was *shrugs* Ah well, the few that have replied have been helpful.

Basically, I know I have my own style and way of doing things. Suggestions are always welcomed but that doesn't mean I have to follow them. If I get the same suggestion from various people over and over, I consider it... only if it isn't detrimental to the story.

[Spitman]

I noticed that many stories appearing in the library seem geared more toward wanton violence, mostly toward women, and non-consensual sex. I was wondering a little about this and some of the ramifications of this.

Are some of these stories being written by people that are genuinely angry with women? Or perhaps with a specific woman? Are the stories written by people that have lived these fantasies out and look to do so again? Perhaps they are written to satiate the primal sexual desire before they actually act the fantasy out.

I realise that this is an old thread, but it raised interesting questions that were not fully answered by the responses.

There were periods of my early life when I was totally deprived of female company. There were compensations of a different kind, but a world without women was a bleak, grey world without colour, emotionally unfulfilling. This kind of deprivation did not make me feel angry against women - there were no women to be angry with, and if there had been, there would have been no such deprivation. On returning to what I regarded as civilisation my senses were so bombarded with joyful images in bright technicolour that it seemed I was living every hour and every minute twice over.

A young man, living for weeks on end under such circumstances, having the normal complement of hormones such as testosterone, needs an outlet for the aggression that is normally released through sexual activity. I used to write fantasies of wild, uninhibited and often imaginative aggression where the recipients of all that aggression were attractive young naked women. I did enjoy doing this. I wrote reams of that kind of stuff. However, back in civilisation, my attitude towards women was not aggressive at all in a violent sense. I never had any inclination to be violent to a woman. I see that as a kind of balance, the fantasy discharging pent-up emotions that contrasted with my well mannered and considerate behaviour in real life.

So, far from indicating repressed, or even actively expressed misogyny, the stories may often be the fantasy on the opposite side of the behavioural coin. It is curious that the Gorean saga refers to an alternative world, as it does. By the way he has constructed his scenario, John Norman may be saying exactly the same thing.

[j]

Generally I would say that to write a story as a way to materialize one's fantasies may be good therapy and/or masturbatory practice, but it makes for lousy erotic literature. Good writers use their fantasies, but they also transcend them, use others', deliberately break boundaries (pushing the envelope is part of the literary fun, whereas it breaks the real life one), so that any story which raises questions about the writer's sanity or balance of mind is in itself (IMHO) a bad story.

Some stories do carry a tremendous amount of anger/hatred towards women; I find them frightful, and frightfully boring (Woodburn's stories come to mind). Other stories, quite as horrific in content, but devoid of any perdonal agenda of hatred or contempt, lead me to erotic bliss. Go figure.

[mickni2000]

Hi

I have read your thread and I would like to write a comment.

First of all you have to excuse my English as I'm not a native English writer.

You wrote among others

Are some of these stories being written by people that are genuinely angry with women? Or perhaps with a specific woman? Are the stories written by people that have lived these fantasies out and look to do so again? Perhaps they are written to satiate the primal sexual desire before they actually act the fantasy out. Perhaps I am reading way too much into things, but I'm tired and it seemed like a good line of thought at the time.

I write stories myself. One of my stories is quite popular. You can read it using the link http://www.bdsmlibrary.com/stories/...hp?storyid=1785 . It’s named Janet’s Ordeal.

Please read some of the reviews for the story using the link http://www.bdsmlibrary.com/stories/...hp?storyid=1785 . The story is the most voted this site.

Furthermore I have written a thread here concerning co-writers for a new role-play and story. The headline for this thread is "Janet's Ordeal, co-writers for a new story."

The story mentioned is a role-play meaning it is written by a very close female cyber friend and I. It’s an extremely cruel story and you could easily get the thought that I’m angry with women. But this is completely wrong. I love and adore women and I would never do like this unless it is a mutual agreement. Some women actually want the pain to continue until they faint. Being in charge for treatment like this is a great responsibility as I would as the Master be responsible for safety. I actually think I would be the one mostly afraid as I would continuously be afraid that I caused her permanent damage. I would treat her like this because I loved her and because I knew that this was the only way to give her the kick and the total sexual satisfaction. When I had her in public I would treat her like a princess as she would mean a lot to me because she was ready to suffer all that pain for me. She would always be able to feel safe. Her fear would only be the sweet fear of what is coming next? How will he test me next? Not real fear as she always would know that she was able to stop it if she wanted. If I let other Masters or Mistresses use her they would never be allowed to explore limits as this would only be something I did because I know her so well and therefore I would be the one capable to keep her on the limit and still make sure she was safe. If they did exceed her limits they would no longer be a friend of mine unless they were able to explain why they did and both my slave and I accepted this explanation. I have always had the opinion that though a woman wants to be treated like a slave and sometimes like shit or worse it doesn’t mean you don’t have to treat her with respect. She would always remain precious to me and be something special to me because she reflected my ‘dark’ desires. This is in my opinion the perfect Master/slave relation or Mistress/slave relation. Do you agree?

Take care……………..

Mick

[teamster]

Dear Tourguide... While I agree with you that I have read some stories here that seem almost sickeningly hateful or violent, especially some of the snuff or cannibalistic pieces, and some that are just unrelievedly grim, I think that it would be a mistake to start censoring such material. If you don't like a story, or you feel that it is just plain hateful, then tell the author so in your review. No doubt if he gets a number of such messages, he might consider rethinking his approach. I can say for myself that in my fiction I deliberately strove to make it as extreme as possible, and made careful note in the preface that this was a work of fantasy and not a recommendation for actual behavior. In real life we need to excercise care and concern for others, especially those who trust us enough to become involved in bdsm-oriented relationships with us. But in fiction there's no reason why we can't just let loose. If people don't like what we have to say they can always just turn the page. Otherwise, what are you going to do... ban all non-consensual stories? Also, it should be noted that there is a fair amount of fem-dom material posted here, whether girl-on-girl or female/male/transgender. Personally, I don't think the whole sadomasochistic mindset has as much to do with hate or hostility as it does with issues of alienation and relatedness, if that's the correct psychological term... a way of establishing a powerful sexual and emotional connection that may be difficult to achieve in other ways. But that's a discussion for another thread...

[BDSM_Tourguide]

Gee, teamster, you must really think I'm the big, evil Nazi to have read so much into this thread.

I didn't say anything about banning anything. I asked if perhaps some people were writing stories because they were angry and maybe writing helps them to have a therapeutic release.

And since this thread was started well over a year ago and nobody's started banning anything yet, I think it's safe to assume the practice won't be considered. So, take a step back, calm down and re-read the topic.

[leo9]

Unless a story filter is explicitly "what Tourguide (or whoever) likes", it's impossible to draw up criteria for what's not acceptable. No two people will agree exactly where the lines are.

I like non-con abuse, but only if the object is to break the victim to slavery (and it succeeds, but not too soon!) I like ingenious tortures and humiliations more than punch-and-kick violence. I can't stand situations that are too like real life, whether it's subordinates at work submitting to the boss to keep their jobs, or abused prisoners in Rwanda/Columbia/Iraq/wherever. But all these are just my tastes, and I couldn't claim they represented any kind of absolute principle.

The point of the story codes is to allow every style and subject on the Library, while letting people pick what they want to read. I can't think of a better system.

[BDSM_Tourguide]

Unless a story filter is explicitly "what Tourguide (or whoever) likes", it's impossible to draw up criteria for what's not acceptable. No two people will agree exactly where the lines are.

One exists. The advanced search feature. Anyone can turn off the story codes they don't want to see before they even get a list of stories.

[Dr Mabeuse]

There's all sorts of violence. A slap can express as many things as a kiss, maybe more. And no doubt there are a lot of men who call themselves doms who are basically sadists and misogynists.

Why is rage so close to passion? Why is anger and threat often so sexually exciting? I've got a lot of theories about BDSM. On the one hand there's the obvious one that says that BDSM is an exaggeration of the usual sexual stereotypes of the aggressive male and the passive female. It's almost as if people who are into D/s have a need to act out these roles in the extreme. The man wants to dominate and control, the woman wants to be taken and controlled.

I have another theories too. Theories are easy. Whether they're true or not is another matter.

---dr.M.

[leo9]

.

Why is rage so close to passion? Why is anger and threat often so sexually exciting? I've got a lot of theories about BDSM. On the one hand there's the obvious one that says that BDSM is an exaggeration of the usual sexual stereotypes of the aggressive male and the passive female. It's almost as if people who are into D/s have a need to act out these roles in the extreme. The man wants to dominate and control, the woman wants to be taken and controlled.---dr.M.

At a science fiction convention recently I sat in on a light-hearted panel on the question "Who is the most erotic character in sf/fantasy?"

The interesting and unexpected conclusion was that all the characters people named and discussed had one common characteristic - or rather, one or other side of one characteristic. They were either totally innocent and vulnerable, or they were powerful and/or manipulative.

Everyone agreed that one's imagination could play it either way, fantasising being in control or being controled. But the panel and the audience (at least half of whom, by my guess, identified as vanilla) agreed that, judging by results, what they all found erotic is extreme power exchange relationships.

<wry smile> Who knew?

[Prodomguy]

Hi Friends,

I find consensual BDSM to be highly erotic. I invite you to check out my story called "Submission in Seattle" and you can judge for yourself.

Take Care,

Prodomguy (listed as author "MB")

[Neopadinski]

I fantasize constantly about breaking into a girl's house, or grabbing her off the street, tying her up and doing lots of things she probably wouldn't like to her. I've actually concocted plans on how to do it. But the only thing I don't consider is whether or not I would actually do it, because under no circumstances would I ever go through with it. If I ever met a rapist, or someone of that nature, I would attack them without a hesitation, with intentions of severely injuring them. Since my mid-teens, I always thought of myself as a hypocrite, because I fantasized about these things but hated the people who actually did them. Then, I came around to realize that it's fine, as long as it's fantasy. I've written only a couple stories where the hanky-panky is consensual, and those were written long ago, when I was first experimenting with sexual stories back when I was 14-15. None of my stories on the library feature consensual sexual acts.

[leo9]

I fantasize constantly about breaking into a girl's house, or grabbing her off the street, tying her up and doing lots of things she probably wouldn't like to her. I've actually concocted plans on how to do it. But the only thing I don't consider is whether or not I would actually do it, because under no circumstances would I ever go through with it.

Find the right girl, and you can do it as a shared fantasy. Last weekend I made arrangements with my new gf before I came to pick her up, and when she got into the car she acted like she was just getting a lift. I held a knife to her throat and told her to hold still and not fight, cuffed her hands behind her back with cuffs that were fastened to a chain behind the seat, then drove her to my place while she alternately begged to be let go and told me I'd never get away with this.

At the house I hung a cloak round her shoulders so I could lead her across the street to the door without anyone seeing her cuffed hands. I realised that if I'd prepared better, since there are so many Muslim women in this neighbourhood, I could have put robes and veil on her and she could have been completely roped and gagged underneath!

Once I had her in the house, I stripped her slowly by cutting her clothes off with the knife I had held her up with (thus settling any doubts she might have had about how sharp it was!) I'd arranged for her to wear stuff from the charity shop box which she could afford to lose; she said afterwards that having her clothes cut off her was the most exciting moment.

When I had inspected my prisoner enough, I tied her down to a chair with a nylon bottle brush under her crotch and let her squirm and beg me to let her off it while I explained that she was here to be broken as my slave, that I expected her to resist and I would enjoy it, but in the end she would belong utterly to me. I spent a long happy afternoon beating and torturing her into grovelling surrender and making her do things she had told me she'd never done and couldn't possibly do, and dropped her back at her place exhausted, bruised all over and glowing with happiness.

Like the old song says, "If you ain't got a dream, how you gonna have a dream come true?"

[longrover]

I'm thinking here, not sure where I'm going .

Thinking about sexual violence (for me) starts with Story of O. It was extremely violent for its time and the first bdsm story I read; I'm sure that's true for many here. Most commentary I've seen and heard of assumes that O was a victim, but she has always been a heroine to me because, like everyone who tries to understand pain and other dark subjects, she was a volunteer. She was an independent professional woman when they were vanishingly rare; her possible suicide never made sense to me. I think it was a sop thrown in to mollify shrinking violets and moralists. Don't let me get started !

I think fictional violence and our reaction to it serves many purposes. Sometimes it's just a phantasy (Texas Chainsaw, Freddy Krueger, ... come to mind although I've never seen them), a Halloween spook. Sometimes there's something else going on (Dirty Harry), sometimes it's a cartoon (Terminator). Sometimes writers and readers use fictional violence to work on something that happened to them or that they're worried about.

We're a violent species that's tried for just over 200 years to convince ourselves that we love peace. That's 200 against millions of years. We are all capable of murder if the right (wrong?) circumstances occur.

Bottom line: Whether people who post here are as sane as anyone else or as whacko as Freddy Krueger, I'd rather have them writing and posting stories than acting out their dreams.

[Curtis]

Excuse me, but what suicide? That's not in my edition. And she couldn't've appeared in the sequel (Return To The Chateau) if she'd died in the first one.

[leo9]

Excuse me, but what suicide? That's not in my edition. And she couldn't've appeared in the sequel (Return To The Chateau) if she'd died in the first one.

There does exist an edition which ends with her killing herself because Sir Stephen leaves her.

While the edition is of questionable authenticity (and as you say, Reage implicitly disowned it by bringing O back for a sequel), the plot line isn't totally improbable from what I know of intense D/s relationships.

In the first place, the end of the relationship is hinted at in a line near the end, where O catches SS's eye at an unguarded moment and realises for the first time that he loves her. I know some old school Masters who got rid of a slave they fell in love with, on the basis that they couldn't be totally in control of her if they loved her.

And in the second place, I have myself had to counsel abandoned slaves - some of them strong, independent women just like O - who felt they had nothing left to live for without their Master. It happens.

[Martin]

Hi there,

I am new here but want to say something about the original question of this thread: Why so much nc and M/f?

I think it is biologically and psychological induced.
First of all sex is stimulated by certain hormones which also have a major part when aggressive (e.g. adrenaline).
Second the role-model of the man, mainly thru education but induced by nature, comes closer to the dominant side in stead of submissive side.
The female by her role loves to be conquered, play the submissive. In reality they sometimes feel frustrated about this behavior (feminist).
The idea to defend herself against aggression stimulates her hormone-production as well.
The man on the other side is celebrated for his conquest and feels good about it when successful and is by nature stimulated more eager to have sex.
So in my opinion aggression/violence can enhance sexual stimulation.

[longrover]

Excuse me, but what suicide? That's not in my edition. And she couldn't've appeared in the sequel (Return To The Chateau) if she'd died in the first one.

My copy (Grove Press, purchased about 1970, now yellowed and fallen apart) ends on page 199. Page 201 (if it were numbered) offers two possible continuations. The text on that page is in italics, suggesting to me that an editor added it:

" In a final chapter, which has been suppressed, O returned to Roissy, where she was abandoned by Sir Stephen.

" There exists a second ending to the story of O, according to which O, seeing that Sir Stephen was about to leave her, said she would prefer to die. Sir Stephen gave her his consent."

I think the first paragraph points to "Return to the Chateau" and, eventually, New O. The second suggests suicide and also provides a hook for a nicely done recent story on this site; unfortunately I do not have its title or author at hand.

I doubt that Reage/Aury authorized the suicide suggestion, making it an editorial sop to romantics and moralists.

[Riptieron]

I noticed that many stories appearing in the library seem geared more toward wanton violence, mostly toward women, and non-consensual sex. I was wondering a little about this and some of the ramifications of this.

Are some of these stories being written by people that are genuinely angry with women? Or perhaps with a specific woman? Are the stories written by people that have lived these fantasies out and look to do so again? Perhaps they are written to satiate the primal sexual desire before they actually act the fantasy out. Perhaps I am reading way too much into things, but I'm tired and it seemed like a good line of thought at the time.

Are men Angry towards women? Humm- BDSM_Tourguide posted a very good question about the psychology of men, and picked up on a very important detail about a great many of the stories that I have read on this (among other) forums. Snuff stories is another extension of this trend to “dominate” women in the storyline. I posed the question to myself while pondering this and found myself saying, “I want to believe there is a woman that secretly desires this to happen to her- and WANTS this to befall her." My thinking it is ok to be abusive under a certain context makes a role play of my own life’s flawed and seemingly unloved and shunned behavior. Then it occurs to me that this is not just a fantasy but an extension of my need to be accepted as whole, no matter my flaws. *snaps back into reality* I have only to exaggerate this into a fantasy environment and the ensuing rape of a young woman becomes a highly erotic ballet of my inner yearnings for love. Wheh, I need a step ladder to get out of this hole!

-RIP

[Dr Mabeuse]

There's violence and then there's violence. I think there's a definite difference between the symbolic violence practiced in BDSM and actual physical violence against women. For instance, a whipping or spanking can be arousing, but if you get off on hitting women in the face or punching them in the stomach, then I've got to think there's something wrong with you.

Certainly there's pain involved in BDSM, but it's rarely administered in anger. In fact, all the whips and chains and costumes seem to be designed to blunt any signs of anger and keep the violence within certain acceptable bounds. The classic Dom is more or less cold and calculating. He's not a guy who flies into violent rages.

That's not to say that there aren't quite a few hardcore misogynists and even psychopaths who hide behind the BDSM label, but you don't have to be a sadist to enjoy the symbolic passion of BDSM. You don;t even have to be into violence.

---dr.M.

[Ruby]

...You don't even have to be into violence.

---dr.M.

Or pain for that matter.

Yet based on the number of stories with snuff / extreme / heavy and nc story codes, there are certainly a number of folks who enjoy writing and reading about it. I find that many of the stories here can be easily classified as horror.

I asked if perhaps some people were writing stories because they were angry and maybe writing helps them to have a therapeutic release. - TJ

To answer your question - for me, yes. I began writing BDSM vampire themed novels a few years ago when I was having a very tough time with a verbally abusive client. Instead of writing a journal, I used my time to write stories about characters I'd like to see and wicked characters that should be punished. Punishing the wicked can be great fun.

Am I angry? Not anymore. Was I? You bet.
Writing is a great way to explore my own emotions as I experience life through the eyes of my characters.

[ProjectEuropa]

[Are some of these stories being written by people that are genuinely angry with women? Or perhaps with a specific woman?.[/COLOR]

I read around ten stories, then submited four of my own, I think. One where the woman is violent towards a male. One where women hold a male captive and two rather comic stories. I read some more stories posted on the site and thought yipes! I need less story and more sex and violence, especially towards women so I went and wrote a sex and violence one. I had to admit it I found the experience rather cathartic, though the writing not as good or the plot very imaginative. Was it against a specific woman? Hmm At this point in my life I have several who would gladly cut my balls off. I'm betting if I get a review I bet it will be on that one when it is posted.

REVELATION! I have just realised that most of my stories have strong, if not dominant female characters in them! Perhaps that's telling me something! Jesus I hope not as I have been climbing the wrong ladder all my life!

[jaeangel]

I write to let off steam.
Basically, I have issues left from my childhood and adolescence (and even further still) that I'm only just now realizing affects practically everything I do. So a lot of my writing (fanfic, mostly) tends to deal with some of those issues, as if by writing out what happened in a fictional setting helps me come to grips with what happened to me.Some of my readers have noticed a continuing theme of abuse and non-consensual rape in my stories; that's because those things happened, and writing about those events and the aftermath of them, helps me work out some of my own unresolved issues. By having a fictional character deal witht he aftermath of such events, i can find my own closure with what happened to me. It's an odd sort of therapy for me.
And it desn't hurt that my writing style seems to be popular with a lot of people, and the sympathy they feel towards my character(s) feels like it transfers to me. So I get the support and care that I didn't get when I was going through my own ordeals, and it helps. So yes, writing for me is therapy of a sort.

[Alex Bragi]

Are some of these stories being written by people that are genuinely angry with women? Or perhaps with a specific woman?

Maybe, maybe not.

Certainly some people do write for release and/or therapy - that’s why many people like to keep private diaries.

I feel that ‘angry authors’ might be more likely to use their emotion as tool, rather than harbour it as motivation.

Amatuer writers of fiction, particularly, have their egos to feed. We crave attention, for our efforts – it’s just human nature. And, we write because we believe our fantasies are something others will enjoy.

I think, too, in an odd kind of way it gives us a certain feeling of immortality. We hope that long after we are gone, our words will remain, and for a few lucky and talented ones, they actually do.