Quote Originally Posted by thir View Post
I must say that I am confused by this. I do not know what all your sources say, but am only looking at SP's lecture.
Fortunately I dont have to be limited to such a narrow view.
Well, this 'narrow view' was in fact the topic of this thread, remember ;-)

My sources are saying that in general, as humanity reaches certian degrees of social sophistication and freedom to pursue more utopian ideals coupled with intregation of one's neighbors with whom one previously made war with in times of distress...due to increasing in technological achievents coupled with atvantageous enviromental conditions in any given area for the period of time in which those conditions are sustainable that violence in general seems to taper off, IE: decline for so long as those conditions are maintained or improved upon.
So, I read this as when times are good, and we can afford to relax and know our neighbours and experiment socially, then we are less inclined towards violence.
I agree with that, absolutely

Then, when times chance, so does this. I agree with that too, which is why I do not agree in a steady curve. Things do change.

The other reason I do not agree with it is that I don't think that we sort of represent the pinnacle of human developement. There is no straight line there either, I think we are what we are, and various parts of what we are will be expressed according to circumstances. My guess is that we have had cultures and civilisations better than the ones we have now, as well as worse. And so the curve of violence will fluxuate.


Then when things upset the balance or a civilization become stagnated and regressive and or too internally focused on headonistic pursuits at the expence of eaither a portion of its own populace or its nieghbors, depending upon a combination of different circumstances, violence levels go back up accordingly as the conditions that allowed its decline are no longer at work.
Its basically the rise and fall of civilizations 101.
I agree, and so it cannot be a steady down wards curve.

He is making a big claim, and should have substantial evidence to back it up. After 1945 he may have it, I cannot judge that. But before that, it is more than flimsy!
Your only viewing an excerpt in the link of a seminar to present some of his ideas, not looking directly at the reaserch, (which btw has several other peoples work involved accross a variety of fields). I agree though his direct source matierial being cited would perhaps have provided more credibility for layman in this area of study. I am sure his peer group is as I am looking into things in more detail from differeing angles.
The discussion was about his lecture, to, as I understand it, what you call laymen.
However, his peer group, if I understand you correctly, are in agreement that the curve of violence drops and rises with circumstances?

Though it does not say how, that is, if it goes up with civilisations, as in wars, or down, as in less crime?

Leo9 explained about HG's fault in source, which makes his point of start and his first graf invalid.
Idk who really posted what between you all above.
Sorry again about the confusion. But the point is, that his starting graf is not valid.

[quote]
His next stop is from coming of agriculture right up to medieval times, and here his entire support for his ideas during this vast span of time is quoting the bible's Hebrew laws. Apparently he thinks that All civilisations around the globe are the same, and wars are not mentioned at all.
Again I believe your over focusing on a single tree at the expense of missing the forrest.
But Denuseri, I have to go with the text I have! He simply does not even try to make a case for anything except laws. And rightly too, I do not see how anyone can make a claim of counting or assessing deaths by crime or wars in all antique civilisations.

[quote]
Medieval times: 'Europe' has draconian laws, but 7 countries have decline in crimes. We must assume that this is representative for the whole globe regardless of culture, as this is all we have.
Pretty much, human beings act like human beings when exposed to the same stimui since we function for the most part in the same ways.

Human beings may be the same (I think so too) but civilisations and cultures are not, thus different stimuli and therefore different results.

Or do you really mean that during this time, Europe, Amerika, India, Japan and inner Africa had the same kind of culture and civilisation?

He has nothing, and that's a fact. His claim is much, much too sweeping!
Not according to his contemporaries.
His contemporaries? Do you mean that later ideas are different? In what way?

Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe his contemporaries are psychologist and philosophers, not historians or anthropologists. If so, their theories must by and large be based on ideas, more than historical knowlegde?

I would tend to assume that violence is not on a steady curve, (more of less) any more than any other thing to do with humanity. I think things work up and down and in and out according to what happens with wars, science, religion, politics, economy and so on.
I believe that what we do with technology will tell the tale about the future, whether it will be used aggressively or in the real service of peace and survival. But I do not believe in any curve going automatically downwards.
The main difference here is that so long as the current cycle is maintained with continual advancment the curve should prove itself to be valid and continue. More reaserch is being done all the same of course.
The key words being 'as long as'. As you said, civilizations rise and fall, 101 of civilizations. SP thinks we are in an downward curve at the moment - I cannot see it that way. To me the world is a place of many kinds of societies and ideas levels of tech, and so must violence be. The good part of that is that we can continue to exchange ideas with each other, and all learn.

But I dont reccomend anyone dismiss the mans assertations outright just becuase they discredit the new ager groups pc view.
I am sorry, I did not understand that at all. Could you explain?