Vindictive Reviews

[SimoneLocke]

I rarely post in the forums, but this just burns me up so much I have to say something.
I just finished reading faye's days (a recent story), and rather enjoyed it so I thought I'd write a review.
Then I came across a lone 1/10 in a string of 8/10s and 10/10s.
The reviewer gave vague references to a disjointed writing style (which I though added to the charm, myself) and improper focus.
Regardless, 1/10 could never be justified for such a paucity of infractions.

I know I might be treading dangerous ground here in advocating censorship, but wouldn't it be proper to pull these kinds of reviews off? I generally look for stories based on their average score, and these kinds of reviews would effectively remove a good story from my radar scope.

[Alex Bragi]

Well, I guess there's a good reason for it, but I've often wondered what the purpose of having a, "Very poor in content with writing skills bordering on illiteracy" option was good for in the first place. I mean if the story is that bad, shouldn't the author be advised to have another look at it, or have someone else look at it, before submitting it again?

I have seen a few stories' ratings slapped down with rock bottom scores but I've never actually read one, on this site, that actually deserved it. It's always a case of the reader being offended by something in the content of the story, or even more strangely the entire story. I mean, the codes are clear, so why do they even both to click on them in the first place?

[Mad Lews]

Comes with the territory, believe me I know. Hopefully the writer has thick skin or a perverse enjoyment of pain. Readers might decide on the basis of a score what is and isn't worth reading and the only way to drown out a vindictive review is with a lot more thoughtful reviewers. Censorship... No thanx
Mad Lews

[ElectricBadger]

Honestly, any attempt to edit or delete reviews is a slippery slope, and we must be aware that the cost of freedom to do as we please is respecting that in others. But...yes, I too have several reviewers I would like to see removed from the lineup, and a couple writers I'd like to see post their first meanderings in the English language elsewhere.

Hopefully, if the story is good enough and widely read, the score will overcome a poor review.

[TomOfSweden]

It depends if we're writing to learn or if it's a popularity contest. It's not the spirit of the review I value but the information it contains. I've learned more from cruel reviews than the nice ones. If somebody says that it sucks in a certain way then I can reflect on it. Somebody saying "w00t it's the best". Doesn't really help me that much. If somebody on the other hand is only trying to be mean, (which has never happened to me) then I'd guess it would come across and can/should be ignored.

[Widget]

Unfortunatly not nice reviews are part and parcel of putting work out there. I had wondered if there was a way to flag reviews, for example deviant art lets the poster choose if they want neutral reviews and invite any comment, postive only or critical ones. That may be an idea and then authors who are more sensitive can ask not to get critical reviews.

[ElectricBadger]

Hmm...not a bad idea. Personally I would love to remove the scoring system; it's easy to ignore a review that "you sux0r" but a lot harder to get over a low score. But then, I know a lot of people do use the scores to find material; would be a shame to lose that tool.

[H Dean]

I am not a fan of censorship. However, in cases where the review is based upon the content and not other merits, I think the review should not be counted in the overall score. I would even go so far as to have the review removed.

I cannot tell you how many reviews I have read where the reviewer gave a negative review because of content or because it was posted in a language other than English. I recall several tales written by Mad Lews and Lex Ludite where the reviewer provided a ridiculous review that was entirely based on content. There is no way either should ever receive less than a "5" - both authors are far too technically sound to receive less.

That would not be censorship but an enforcement of the review code; something that should be enforced far more than it is.

[Widget]

well some people live for those numbers, unfortunatly with averages if you have only a small amount of scores to average one low one knocks stuff way down. Perhaps Rabbit could consider two things that shouldn't ( i think ) create any extra work once set up.

One is when a member submits they choose the types of reviews or no reviews they want and if they want the score bars. It might be as simple as setting up a member control panel for preferences such as deviant art or just letting rabbit know and he sets the permissions.

I think that the reviews are slightly unreliable anyway, I think there is some members that manipulate the scores but if they are its thier own thing and its not hurting anyone. I just hate to see people take negative commentary to heart. I also would like to challenge the members who are unhappy about reviews to thier submissions to review storys when they are on.

If there is a review that is not postive in terms of the story it sometimes is nice to have the member be specific, eg not enough character development instead of you suck. However a vindictive reviewer may not really know how to write a good critical review or they are just not planning to be nice as its not said to the other persons face. I guess sometimes people forget that real people with feelings are reading the reviews of thier work.

[TomOfSweden]

Here's a crazy thought. Maybe the score is an indication and not an absolute?

[Dragon's muse]

Who shall be appointed the determiner of what is a valid review and what is not? A rating or a review is a purely subjective call. Just because they disagree with you does not mean that they are vindictive -- they just think differently.

[H Dean]

I mentioned this on another thread, but I don't mind being repetitive...

When someone reviews a story and gives it a low rating because they dislike the subject matter it is a bad review. Some reviews have been negative because the story was written in a language other than English. There are also individuals who I have seen providing poor reviews to flame people. I have also seen review wars. Those are pretty obvious.

Also, technical aspects of a story are not subjective. I have seen stories get reviews of a 1 or 2 that were technically sound. Any lower than a 4 indicates substancial technical deficiencies.

All of the things I mentioned violate the guidlines given for a review. So, I disagree - it isn't subjective in many cases.

[mkemse]

In al ot of the stories that I have reviewed, I have seen many times a "Cut and Paste" review, and if you follow that reviewer through their other reviews 99% are the exact same number and exact same written review via copy and paste, which means to me any way they are not able to form any constructive critismsm if that is the reason they gave a story a 1 and everything they do is the same reason it posted.
No story here or anywhere is perfect but only a very select few i have seen deserve a 1 and when I have rated it like that, i explain why but i also notice that 5 others rated it the same as i did,
Just a thought

[mkemse]

Also rmember, when a reviewer start their review with "I can tell English is NOT your primary language" rmember 2 things before you type this

1. this site is world wide and there are going to be language differences in speach and writing

2. He "English" to you may be terible, but keep in mind if you write and post a story, "Your" English to him or he may be viewed by him or her the same way
Your is to them if this site was onlt avaible in The United States that would be a valid agreement, basic English in the US when writing, but this site is NOT it is as i said world wide and languages and dialalects will vary, keep mind of this
I kno alot of people who speak broken English, yes to me it sound very odd and strange sepaking only english myselff, but then my English not broken will or may sound odd to them, the same hold with stories

[Dragon's muse]

Still curious about who decides what is a valid opinion and what isn't. Personally, i do not even look at the reviews, but at the content codes. Primarily, i do this because in any forum like this any scoring system is bound to be skewed.

[Mothbrad]

I always try to make a special effort to review a story postively if it has any stupidly negative reviews, and make a comment to that effect.

I think that, within reason, reviewing a story based on its content is appropriate - meaning that if something is really repulsive to you, and you weren't tipped off that it would be that way because of the codes/synopsis, then it's fair enough to complain. If, on the other hand, the code said 'M/m', and you don't like Malesub stories, then giving it a bad review makes you look like a jerk.

[Clevernick]

I think the opposite happens, too.

I'm well aware of how few reviews stories get, and my responsibility to review more of them myself to make it up. But when I come across a story that sounds like it was told by a 10-year-old with a learning disability, I am usually reluctant to post the "2" or "3" it deserves.

Why? Because
a) I'm new here and maybe the story really deserves a "1" or a "4". I haven't calibrated yet.
b) Author of said piece o crap story may decide to avenge themselves on my own stories, which would not only piss me off, it would reduce my readership.
c) I am not feeling generous enough toward the author to give them the advice they really need, and they wouldn't appreciate "go back to high school" as feedback anyway.

So I say nothing. Call me a coward.

Assuming that others feel as I do, there are probably several really scathing reviews out there unwritten, and some overrated pieces o crap as a result.

[TomOfSweden]

I think the opposite happens, too.

I'm well aware of how few reviews stories get, and my responsibility to review more of them myself to make it up. But when I come across a story that sounds like it was told by a 10-year-old with a learning disability, I am usually reluctant to post the "2" or "3" it deserves.

Why? Because
a) I'm new here and maybe the story really deserves a "1" or a "4". I haven't calibrated yet.
b) Author of said piece o crap story may decide to avenge themselves on my own stories, which would not only piss me off, it would reduce my readership.
c) I am not feeling generous enough toward the author to give them the advice they really need, and they wouldn't appreciate "go back to high school" as feedback anyway.

So I say nothing. Call me a coward.

Assuming that others feel as I do, there are probably several really scathing reviews out there unwritten, and some overrated pieces o crap as a result.

That's not being a coward, that's being smart. There's no point in pissing on someone lying down. It cannot add anything. Stories that bad are always painfully aparent, and if it isn't to the author they've got more serious problems, and nothing you say can change that. The people we like reviewing is off-course the stories we like, (or we wouldn't have bothered finnishing it, would we?) so then it's about helping an author making something good better. Reviewing I think should be fueled by selfish greed. We encourage authors we want to see more of, and we help them to get even better. There's no brownie points for helping people you don't care about.

[TheVariableX]

It's a piece of bad luck for someone who objects to something in your story to bother and give it an unjustly low score.

For stories that manage more than a score of reviews a mechanical solution to the problem is to simply cut the bottom and top 10% of scores before crunching any numbers. I vaguely remember reading how the averages are calculated and I don't recall any such cropping.

I share peoples hesitance at any form of censorship. I suppose the method I suggested above could effectively remove the persons voice but their opinion would be there if you went looking.

The real solution however does not involve maths or social ethics but us.

If you take the time to read a story and you enjoyed it then take the time to review it. Even a small % of the readers of many stories would make up a reasonable pool for scoring purposes. This is something I was pretty slack on while lurking, but something I have recently attempted to remedy.

[ThisYouWillDo]

I believe malicious comments should be removed, but who is to say what amounts to malice? Unless we set up a panel of arbiters - who are bound to get it wrong from time to time - the only answer can be the author concerned.

In Poemhunter.com, members can delete comments posted by reviewers if they feel they are inappropriate. I suggest that on this site, authors should be able to ask for specific comments to be removed also.

But if it is noticed that a particular reviewer is causing an inordinate amount of offence, then maybe other steps could be taken (maybe I could be allowed to punish the pretty female ones ...)

TYWD

[Rubberwolf]

I do not feel that sencorship is the way. It is completely at odds with the very nature of sites like this, where people are encouraged to enter and talk about subjects that, to most people (primarily politicians) would be viewed with disdain and a lack of understanding. So sencoring someone for saying something that you don't agree with about something that you do seems quite wrong to me. That said, the scores are important to the authors as they give a nice indication of the level of appreciation that people have for the hard work that you have invested in your creation.

My sugestion therefore, is to allow the poor review, but also to give the author the chance to appeal against the score. At the moment, although you can reply to the reviewer, you can not appeal against the score. It might be useful if you could set your concerns before a site moderator and ask them to adjudicate for you. Both parties could then post their arguments to a third party and, for grossly unfair review, have the score ammended, with a foot note on the site that this had happened. In this manner, while deserved negative reviews would re-inforce the power of critical reviews, the power to use the same medium to publically overturn an unfair rant. In this manner the reviewers would have to consider their reviews as much as the authors have to consider their story content.

Rubberwolf

[TOXIS]

I feel your pain. To my experience, those who slam stories tend never to post one of their own, and if they do, it's stillborn. Some of the best stories I've ever read had all sorts of syntax, grammar and spelling issues. Take a look at the first chapters of Cutty or Owned Teacher. Things got better. While I would not delete the comment, I suggest a "throw out the high and low rating" system to avoid the issue.