On-line punishment

[slavelucy]

Originally posted by Wontworry
To follow TGs argument logically would mean that it is wrong to even exchange photographs with a sub or Dom because that would “prove” that you are as you have described yourself. Presumably this would then move beyond the visual aspect to any “proof”, for instance if you received something written by the sub that is in the public domain.

I am seriously impressed if TG has never asked for, or been sent, a photograph or anything else that could be taken as some form of proof that an on-line partner is the person he thinks they are.

Sorry WW, but i don't agree, the photograph analogy is a tenuous one - the exchange of a photograph, in order to gain some appreciation of who you are talking to and make an o/l relationship of any sort more meaningful, is not, IMHO, the same thing as using a webcam or any other form of technology to prove to a Dominant (or anyone for that matter) that you haven't been telling 'little white lies'. The two are not the same in that a person may not necessarily send a photograph in order to 'prove' who they are.

i can however understand why you feel a little put out, certainly i meant no offense; i suspect that some of the confusion could have arisen via the use of the line -

"A cam prevents any little white lies, because he KNOWS whether i obeyed because he can SEE me and hear me, and i can hear him."

Certainly i can more than see how a webcam or whatever would bring about a real physical element to an o/l relationship...i do not however think it intensifies the D/s nature of it from a trust point of view, when presented in the 'white lies' context.

sl

[Finding_Fantasy]

WW, As for discussing this here, as long as it is kept in a civil matter, it is alright to debate.

As for what TG meant, he and I have discussed this, and you have misunderstood what he was saying. And he misunderstood what you were saying, so, in interests of keeping things civil and before this gets into a HUGE nit picking feast, which it will soon become, why don't we just say this.

You and jazz trust each other and have chosen to use a web cam. Good for you. That's your choice. TG does not see the need for them that is his opinion and his choice and that he feels if people feel the absolute need for a web cam, then there is a shortage of trust. That is his opinion so let him have it.

Respect each others opinions and if you disagree, do not get all hot under the collar, simply state your opinions in a calm manner and be done with it. There is no reason to get bent out of shape because someone does not agree with your way of doing things. So he misunderstood. It happens everyday. I know I have misunderstood things in my lifetime.

Let's just concede that the the two of you do not agree on the use ofweb cams and whether or not they are needed or what their purpose may be and let's not agonise over one or two little lines in a other wise uniflammatory posts. I just do not want to see this end up in another all out brawl because of another misunderstanding or difference of opinion.

[jazz]

GOODNESS!!!

i merely meant that it makes a more r/l situation...if WW and i were in the same room, he would see my compliance and to use TGs analogy whether i could put my legs behind my head (which he has NEVER been vulgar enough to ask me to do..sheesh).

i can't understand why it is a big deal to use EVERY method of communication available.

In a few years when virtual touch and smell becomes available, i will be hooking up and WW will be the FIRST one i want to use it with. i will always use whatever is available to me....it is NOT about trust it is about giving myself in every way i can to my Master.

[Finding_Fantasy]

Again...I just think that is was the one little line that threw him off jazz. It through me off too. And yet again, it was just an innocent misunderstanding.

You guys trust each other which is awesome. That is a tough thing to actually do online. And I can see why you would want to use the cam since you probably will never neet online.

BUT there are many peole who use web cams to "make sure" their submissive is doing exactly as he/she is told. I have met more than my fair share so when the line about "little whiter lies" came out, it triggered the misunderstanding we now have.

As for the "putting your legs behind you head" thing that TG said. That's just his sense of humor. I don't understand it sometimes myself

Also, when TG gets a chance to be online (when my butt is on the computer) he will be more than happy to explain what he meant and that it was truly not a stab at your relationship...just a bad choice fo words. (Trust me, he and I get in enough tiffs over misunderstanding. lol)

[BDSM_Tourguide]

I'm not passing judgement on anyone, although it does seem to me that if someone has to 'prove' that they really are carrying out tasks so that 'little white lies' don't become a problem, then there does seem to be a trust issue.

It seems to me, and only to me and only in my opinion, that if you have to have physical evidence that someone has completed a task, rather than just seeing the results of that task, then there's an issue of trust involved. And, hey, if it was her idea to use the cam and mic, then more power to her and you and I hope you both have a lovely time doing it.

I don't feel the need to have visual evidence of my tasks being done. I can simply assign a writing assignment or a reading assignment with a summary to be written and the written assignment is evidence enough that the task was completed. In my realtionships, though, I am likely to not give physical assignments anyway. The physical world is for meetings in face to face, again in my opinion.

Attribute our disagreement to differences of styles. The majority of my BDSM life is done in the mental realm, with tasks given and carried out and assignments given to be done before a deadline expires. The physical aspects of my BDSM life take a big backseat to the mental. If my relationship is online, then I'd rather read an activities questionnaire or read a written assignment or read a story that my submissive has to prepare than I would see the person to which I am talking put the nipple clamps on and leave them there until I say otherwise.

Granted, I have done that sort of thing before, and it's fun, but I still have not needed or wanted photographic or visual evidence that the task was completed. If it was, yay. If not, oh well. Between the two of us, we would each know how comitted to the relationship the other was. I trust her to do as she's told, if she violates that trust, it's on her shoulders and she has to deal with it. If she gives a shit about the relationship, she'll do what she's asked. If she doesn't, then she won't and it probably won't last anyway. Most of the bad ones don't.

So, no, I don't want to try it. I don't want it and don't need it. That's not to say that I'm going to tell you how to run your relationship, because I don't really care how anyone else runs their relationship. When it applies to me and my realtionship, I run them as I want them done.

I'm also not criticizing anyone for wanting to use webcams and other visual or auditory aides. Fine, do it. Have fun with it. However, if the statement comes up that they are being used to give testimony that the required tasks are being carried out, then, yeah, I have an opinion to insert. Honestly, jazz's wording is for her and WW to discuss and sort out. I responded to the nature of the statement, not to personally attack, but to advise if there was a potential problem.

My chosen handle here and other places is BDSM_Tourguide. I teach, I advise and I listen. That's what I like to do. I'm not so pretentious as to think I can tell someone how to handle their relationship. That's up to the parties therein.

Party on, dudes!



Legal disclaimer: All instances of the word "you" used in this statement have been to the general, second-person usage and not meant for individual means of singling out one or more parties in particular.

[jazz]

Oh my, here we go again!

It is easy for someone who has a r/l partner to propound the virtues of an online relationship as a "cerebral" experience...or some experience that is worthy of more "trust" than a r/l experience. As i don't believe that anyone sits in the other room and yells requests/orders to their sub and just expects them to be done without evidence. Since i don't have a r/l partner, this is ALL that i have and i wanted to make it as "real" as i possibly could (WW can tell his own opinion as to whether this is the case with him). Yes, i told him i had the cam, offered to use it, and he accepted.

Anyone who tells me that they have obeyed EVERY order/request that an online Dom has given them is just, i am sorry, IMHO, lying. No one does it in real life, much less online, where the evidence of their conduct is not apparent. It falls somewhere in the line of faking an orgasm in the vanilla world, and any woman who tells me that she has not EVER done that, i am sorry, IMHO, is also lying.

i perhaps did not explain myself very well, had NO idea it would cause such a big thunderstorm, and the written word does not lend itself to communication of real points...it is about your interpretation of what i said...not my real meaning, which leads me back to why i like to use voice and cam. The inflection of words, the tones of voice, and the looks on a face are worth THOUSANDS of words. We are not talking video porn here, WW could watch a movie for that...everyone knows there are thousands of them out there for FREE.

i acknowledge and accept responsiblity for my lack of explanation. i should have been more clear...and i am new to the online experience as i have pointed out to many of you that i have chatted with. i will take this as a learning experience, that i need to be more specific and spell out EXACTLY what i mean and not leave it open to interpretation by people who do not know me. Since i am new to the forum, you could not possibly know me TG...i couldn't expect you to know that i didn't mean we had video porn running here and that WOULD somehow lessen the importance of our relationship. The video aspect of an online relationship is nice to have, i bought the cam to communicate with my mother who lives a couple hours from me and wanted to stay in closer touch and i wanted her to see my children. Video just made everybody seem closer...more real. It is the same thing here. It just made us closer...more real, that is all. Not about trust...not about PROVING anything...it is about being closer, feeling real in a world where i do not get to live in a lifestyle i would choose. Wouldn't work for everyone.

But i beleive that we have touched on some real issues here and if i hadn't said what i said and you hadn't responded as you did, the discussion would have died and maybe things happened as they did for a reason. You have JUSTLY pointed out that cams can be a lessening of a mental relationship and turn it into a physical one...more like a one night stand. i have tried (hopefully effectively) to point out that cams can improve a relationship, help you get to know your partner if you are not using them for video porn or EVEN if you are if that is your goal. i don't knock anyone for video porn if that is their calling. Obviously, i prefer stories...i spent most of my time (of the time i had available) at this site, lurking, before i came out in the open...some prefer videos.

Also, to each their own......and Party on? You bet. Thanks TG for a lively discussion.

[slavelucy]

Originally posted by jazz
Anyone who tells me that they have obeyed EVERY order/request that an online Dom has given them is just, i am sorry, IMHO, lying.

..but isn't this precisely the crux of the matter, i don't think it is a matter of whether or not a sub has obeyed every order issued by a dominant, but rather whether or not they have been truthful about it; this is to say that, yes, i agree that it is unlikely that many people have obeyed every order that an o/l dominant has given them, but surely if they are a worthy submissive, they will be honest about it and say "i'm sorry, i didn't do it" and take the consequences of it...be that a punishment or the dom taking the sub back to the task to try again....to me, it is precisely through this process that a relationship strengthens between a Dom and a sub. i am not talking about yourself and WW jazz, but about the nature of the D/s relationship in general.

On a more playful note....i have personally never faked an orgasm in r/l or o/l.....most men don't need their ego's massaging any further

sl

[Wontworry]

TG, I can only ask that you look at what you said.

“So, what you're really saying is... that there's no trust in your relationship? Why else would you have to prove that you are carrying out his orders?”

“I responded to the nature of the statement, not to personally attack, but to advise if there was a potential problem."

Well, TG. Look at it again. Do the first two sentences LOOK like advice? Or a personal attack? If that is your way of giving advice I would suggest you take a course in conflict resolution.




“I don't feel the need to have visual evidence of my tasks being done. I can simply assign a writing assignment or a reading assignment with a summary to be written and the written assignment is evidence enough that the task was completed.”

So .. you don’t feel the need to have visual evidence … the written assignment is evidence. WHAT ?????

Your argument is totally illogical. To have total trust in your sub, surely FF would have done the assignment, told you she had done it and .. nothing. You would not need or wish to see it. You would trust her.

This is where I believe you confuse a web cam with some peep show. The use of a cam is no different to any other piece of technical equipment (email, IM, telephone, snail mail, etc) except in degree.

I doubt there has EVER been an online relationship where a sentence along the lines of “I would love to see that/show you” has not been written. A cam allows this. Trust is NOT an issue.

[BDSM_Tourguide]

But I'm tired of trying to explain my posts to unreceptive audiences. Think what you want. I really don't see the point in continuing this pointless blunder if you're not even going to try to see what I'm trying to say.

Party on!

[Curtis]

Well, gee, Wontworry, I hope you'll let someone else play!

I think slavelucy has put this pretty well, and, like andibabe, I have a little experience in this line.

About this time last year I began a three month on-line relationship. Photos were exchanged (which don't mean a damn thing because they're so easily copied from the internet). Orders were given and, supposedly, followed. Stories were written.

In the end, it turned out that both of us were lying (about different things). If I ever get in another on-line relationship, there will certainly be a web-cam or some other means of verification involved. Lack of trust? Oh, yeah! Big time lack of trust. Having been both biter and bitten, I am at least twice shy.

This crosses over into three or four other threads, but considering how most BDSM players look (me included), I just can't see using a webcam as a turn-on. Who wants to see that? I certainly wouldn't want anyone else seeing me! I guess it's like rubbernecking at a car crash.

Whatever floats your boat.

[BruceBoxer]

Using the internet is great for meeting folks of similar interests, but, as Curtis points out, it's often a venue filled with deceipt. WHile some "white lies" can be tolerated, for me, on-line relationships are unfulfilling. I enjoy writing and reading the fiction but you just can't beat first hand flesh-on-flesh.

[Wontworry]

Curtis … no way … this one is just for ME !!!

But I am sure TG agrees with me (on this one anyway) that it is good to get this thread back on course, although I think its about on-line punishment rather than web cams !!!

With the online I have done .. I have also been bitten once although it was fun anyway, I have been with another whom I truly believe never told a lie without admitting to it very shortly afterwards, a third about whom I honestly have no idea and, currently jaz.

jaz is the only one who has a cam and the experience is obviously very different. The looks thing is not important and I particularly agree with andibabe when she says that the face is so very much more pleasurable to look at than a guided tour of the punishments. I would estimate that for 99% of the time the cam is doing exactly what it was designed to do – that is to give a view of the head and shoulders of the person sitting at the other computer. jaz’s face, with ALL its attendant expressions, is far better to see than a selection of pegs and clamps !!!!


Bruceboxer … I couldn’t agree more. Flesh-on-flesh wins every time. If you could just solve a small problem of 3000 miles for me then online is a waste of space, but until then I will take what is available.