Deleting Threads (and Posts)

[Curtis]

Last night I heard something that troubles me. In addition to moving threads between categories, our SuperModerator is deleting threads.

He's written me a polite note, explaining what he's doing and, briefly, why.

From a completely empirical standpoint, I can agree that there are posts I would like to see deleted. I also share his frustration when the third thread on the exact same topic is started. I believe he hopes that if there are fewer threads to wade through, responsible posters will be more likely to check to see if something similar (or identical) already exists. My faith in human nature is not so great. (Tourguide, if I'm mis-representing you here, please set the record straight.) He may also be trying to make it easier for newbies and people who vanish from the Forum for months at a time to get up to speed.

My problem with this arises from the arbitrary nature of any deletion of threads. The things I would like to see deleted, Mobius or Faibhar would like to keep. Some of the things that Tourguide is deleting, I would probably want to keep.

I may be alone in this, but I view this Forum as a valuable (I wouldn't say 'important') historical record. If (and I'm not saying that these have been targeted) Brenda's, Whipit's, Kostly's, or that damn rabbit's posts are deleted, an essential part of the Forum's history will disappear. I find their posts to be very instructive examples of how NOT to post, and I keep them firmly in mind when I am criticizing fellow Forumites. What will new members use for their bad examples (don't say, "Curtis"!)? I'm not being sarcastic, here. A Code Of Conduct is a very good thing, but seeing how ugly things get when the Code isn't followed is worth its weight in gold.

In the "Moving Threads" thread, I said that these threads exist and suggested that a ghetto be created to segregate them, so that the people who want to avoid them easily can.

The response seems to be, make the threads not exist.

And this troubles me.

[GaryWilcox]

One of the most popular threads in this forum-- Favorite Pictures-- might be gone forever. But it's not TourGuide who's responsible, it's... :: sigh :: little ol' me.

I slipped, and deleted Favorite Pictures. Managed to save Kostly's initial post and about 12% of the pictures, but that's not a lot.

[reverie35]

You will need to read 20 romance novels as penance.

[Mobius]

Originally posted by GaryWilcox
One of the most popular threads in this forum-- Favorite Pictures-- might be gone forever. But it's not TourGuide who's responsible, it's... :: sigh :: little ol' me.

I slipped, and deleted Favorite Pictures. Managed to save Kostly's initial post and about 12% of the pictures, but that's not a lot.

I think you need to go back to moderator school and learn how to use your great power before you bring down the house.

please do not make the same mistake with the hentie thread. Althought it is not that big a deal most can be replaced and the one's that cant can always find better ones

And Curtis please do not bring me into a ruckus with tourguide.
He is a dictator but he is our dictator

[GaryWilcox]

I promise to be careful around all of those threads, and we might see the Favorite Pictures thread return in a few days. Waiting to hear if Jinn can do anything.

[Dari]

don't dwell too much on that mistake, I mean things like that tend to happen, and I'm sure that no-one will flame you for it - it just proves how human even moderators are

[Kostly]

Why question the great wisdom of the moderators (note: SARCASTIC TONE)

[Curtis]

Thank you for making Tourguide's point, Kostly.

By the way, I should also thank you for your concern about my avatar attracting middle-aged homosexuals, but so far the only one is you.(note:SARCASTIC TONE)

[Faibhar]

I can say that, while middle-aged and having the usual spattering of homosexual thoughts, hetereosexuality is a personal preference. All the more reason to wonder why, as Curtis posted

my avatar attracting middle-aged homosexuals

Life is all so confusing at times...Just as when the same person posts

The things I would like to see deleted, Mobius or Faibhar would like to keep

Sure, it's a pleasure and honor just to be mentioned by another though I must confess to knowing little of, or about the other individual whose tastes, according to Curtis, may be like mine.

As for deleting or non deleting by newly appointed adminstrators, it does help to flex those new "muscles" even if that flexing results in a near disaster (We learn from our mistakes isn't that how the saying goes?) as apparently happened. No doubt Gary Wilcox will be wiser and more prudent next time he confronts a thread wanting to be moved.

[Kostly]

Originally posted by Curtis
Thank you for making Tourguide's point, Kostly.

By the way, I should also thank you for your concern about my avatar attracting middle-aged homosexuals, but so far the only one is you.(note:SARCASTIC TONE)

So what if I was homosexual, is anything wrong with that? your comment seems to imply that either I am a homophobe or that you are. I know I am not homophobic so the only logical conclusion is that you are a homophobe. I feel sorry if this is the case.

Sincerly
Kostly

[BDSM_Tourguide]

I refrained from posting this earlier this morning, when I saw Kostly's first post, but now that I see the direction in which this is about to go, I'm going to post what I had to say now.

Kostly, if you're going to come back to these forums after months of posting nothing and insult the moderators of these forums, try to start yet another self-pitying flame war and hijack threads into directions they don't need to go, then I have one word for you: LEAVE!

Get the hell out now! If you can't be constructive and civil, I don't want you here at all.

So, if the next thing you post isn't nice, polite and on a topic belying the thread in which you post, then Jinn, Gary Wilcox and I will make sure you don't post here anymore. Don't think I can't do it? Ask Whipit.


Now, if anyone has anything further to say about the accidental deletions of threads or the deliberate deletions of the older threads by me, please feel free to post. Otherwise, move on.

Thank you.

[Curtis]

I concede. BDSM_Tourguide was right. There are threads with no redeeming features, threads that deserve to die, and this is one of them. Obviously there is zero support for my position and I have managed to either confuse or offend Faibhar, neither of which was my intention.

Faibhar, if you're offended, I apologize. If you're confused by the reference to my Avatar, it was in regards to a PM Kostly sent me. I tried to PM him back, but his box was full and it bounced, so I took this inopportunity to deal with it in thread.

I shall now fold my tent and steal away into the night. If anyone else has a question, please send me a PM.

[Faibhar]

Curtis, I wa certainly not offended, though a bit bemused being lumped together with someone who I really do not know in your previous post. I know, I know, one should not take these things "personally".

But, still.

Anyway, on the subject of your avatar, I went through all of the preamble in my post only to neglect saying that I was not attracted to it because of a sexual preference that is not mine. I find your avatar attractive for reasons unconnected with what another earlier had posted, and that was what I responded to in my post.

[pierced pussy]

Originally posted by GaryWilcox
One of the most popular threads in this forum-- Favorite Pictures-- might be gone forever. But it's not TourGuide who's responsible, it's... :: sigh :: little ol' me.

I slipped, and deleted Favorite Pictures. Managed to save Kostly's initial post and about 12% of the pictures, but that's not a lot.

I'm new so don't get upset but will the favorite pictures thread ever come back and if so when? Written threads are very interesting but a picture saves and says a thousand words.

[GaryWilcox]

We're still waiting to see what Jinn says... might be possible to repost it, missing only a day or two of pictures.

[BDSM_Tourguide]

Originally posted by pierced pussy
I'm new so don't get upset but will the favorite pictures thread ever come back and if so when? Written threads are very interesting but a picture saves and says a thousand words.

It is perhaps most disheartening to me that the most popular, most posted and apparently most missed thread in this whole story site's forums is the pictures thread.

Are people just here to browse our secondhand, and sometimes third- or fourthhand, porn? I am aware that this is an "adult" site and that the topic is bondage and erotica, but really, is it so hard for people to type out a message and actually express some views?

Or would that mean typing with BOTH hands, something to which many people that view pictures-only sites are apparently unaccustomed to.

As I was telling my wife yesterday when browsing through the "Who's Online" list of people, if a third of the people that browsed the favorite pictures thread actually posted to the forums, we'd have hndreds of new messages a day. To me, that would be really neat. To have more peoples' thoughts and ideas and to see other members actually register and start becoming regulars, instead of just lurking about and waiting for the new pics to show up.

I guess I'm asking for too much from people that don't have to do any of the work here, don't have to pay to view what we put up and yet are still indignant enough with us to ask when the pictures will return. Come out of your shells and register. Post some thoughts and ideas. Take the time to view some of the other areas of the forums than just the pictures threads.

[Shadoom]

Originally posted by BDSM_Tourguide
It is perhaps most disheartening to me that the most popular, most posted and apparently most missed thread in this whole story site's forums is the pictures thread.

Are people just here to browse our secondhand, and sometimes third- or fourthhand, porn? I am aware that this is an "adult" site and that the topic is bondage and erotica, but really, is it so hard for people to type out a message and actually express some views?

Lurking is a time-honored tradition; no matter the topic, forums always have more lurkers than writers.

Regardless of the venue, the vast majority of humanity is lurking, watching from the outside; people who actually *do* something -- write, create, discuss, think -- is pretty small.

Also, BDSM isn't a topic many people will be comfortable chatting about. My wife, for example, loves the kinky stuff, but would be mortified to talk about it with *anyone*. She will, however, peruse what others write, out of curiosity.

I'd post more, but life has been rather hectic lately.

[Mobius]

getting over his illness and should not be botherd with some thing as trivial as the deletion of a bunch of jpgs that can be replaced. If the esteemed moderators want the thread to continue post what you have and we will continue from there.

If they do not then. I will continue to post Pics in threads to punctiate a coment and call it a day.

It is not like we posed the model set the lighting tied the tittys.
These are pics that we have acuired from news groups websites and other users. They can be replaced no biggy.

Gary goofed he says he will not make the mistake again. Good enough for me put up what you have and well start over.

[S_Couture]

Maybe I'm confused, but why would old threads be deleted to begin with? Were the servers out of room? Moderators generally leave old posts alone. It's the active ones that you have to worry about.

And why would threads be moved? If you were to move them, wouldn't it be best to do so when they were first posted, instead of waiting until there were a hundred replies.

[BDSM_Tourguide]

I moved over 60 threads in the General Talk area to more appropriate areas in an effort to clean up the forums and to make them a little easier to view.

I chose now to do it because the General Talk forum was seven pages long and had over 180 individual threads. It was a mess and no one ever even looked on pages 4-7 anyway. I also chose to do it now, because the Community forum has its own moderator and the upkeep on threads will be easier now.

So, what I did was to go through and eliminate "dated" threads, like last year's Thanksgiving thread, various peoples' birthdays from last year, etc. I also seleted threads that had been sitting around for months without any replies or with no real bearing on anything timely with less than three replies. In all, I only deleted about 30 threads in these areas.

I also removed threads that had degenerated into flaming and had lost any real discussion-worthy merit. I think Curtis might have been somewhat right in that I should have kept some of them around as examples of what not to post, but I didn't think of it at the time, so they're gone. Some, I am not at all unhappy to see gone, too.


So, that was just the General Talk area. I haven't even moved into the BDSM Library areas yet or the Community areas. Updates to those areas will be coming soon.

[S_Couture]

Why would you do that? There has been times at Alt.sex.stories, where it has been useful to go back into history and find old stuff...like who invented certain terms etc.

If the posts aren't hurting anything, then I think you should just leave them be. I've moderated boards before, and I've never heard of anyone doing what you are doing now. You act as if these are your boards. You are just here to keep the peace and not let anyone do anything illegal that can cause problems for Jinn.

Anything more and you are botching it up.

[Finding_Fantasy]

How can threads wishing everybody Merry Christmas or Happy Thanksgiving have any merit other than the small amount of time is applied?

There was a thread from back in January wishing me a happy birthday. It had its use, it has been deleted, how is that "botching" things.

I think our moderators deserve a little more credit than they are given. Just because they are moderators does not mean they have a sign that says "Make my life a living hell."

The threads that were deleted really had no educational value and would not have been of any use to anyone. Like posts on the World series. What possible good could come out of keeping it around? The world series is over and a new thread can be started at the end of nest season. Not a big loss.

So, I say give our moderators a break, deal with the loss and forget about it. They are gone and there really isn't much you can do about it so why beat a dead horse (unless you are into that sort of thing and if you are you need help).

Oh, and I have moderated forums before and the web owners were grateful that I cleaned up the clutter. It makes the forums easier to navigate and helps people, especially those that are new to the site, focus on what the site is really about.... BDSM.

Anyway, my personal opinion is that the moderators are doing a good job. Also, as for moving threads. So what? It's not like they are gone, just moved to an area where they are on topic. I don't understand why this has become such an ordeal.

[Lord Thomas]

First of all, for those of you adults on this site who are overly sensitive to people expressing opinions that may be contradictory, please be warned. This is a post in support of Curtis, who like Me does not appear to like where this arbitrary destruction of the written word is going. If open minded and accepting thought scares you please do not continue. For those of you who are not scared, read quick for tomorrow may either be Christmas or the end of this post this thread, or whatever is next. <gallows humor>


Anyway, I am confused as to this new deletion and movement of threads and posts. Maybe, I am in an extreme minority who does not like the idea that My posts, threads, ideas, expressions; (that to Me were worth putting into words for consideration of this community), being arbirtrairlly delelted. Given the cyber guilotine as it were.

Now perhaps I do not have all the facts, maybe this site is too small for say 60 threads here or there and it is being plastic surgeried into some ideal of perfection. But then perfection has a way of never being realised, for it is fickle and illusive.

I am not seeing the greater good in this at all. Much less, what of those people who post only to have thier posts deleted, does this really encourage them to post again? I would say no.

But I am getting ahead of Myself... I did talk to you TG last ngiht in the chatroom and I am with you on keeping kiddie porn off ths site. do not agree with that and I think it would reflect badly upon this site and have no problem with standinga t the ramparts to hold it at bay.

However, tonight is the first time I got the chance to read this thread here. I have to say I am shocked. Actually, I am embarrassed that a site like this would stoop so low as to be a propigator of censorship. Yes, I said it censorship. Before anyone freaks out, I say again censorship. For that is what is going on here boys and girls. When a select few decide what is worthy of these boards and gives the axe to what they see as not "right" they are censoring.

Now of course there are those who pick fights and act out as asshole bratty 13 year olds. I find it reasonable to use My own judgement and ignore them Myself just fine. Those who hurt others intentionally should be bounced from this board. But entire threads? Its a cyber reign of terror. (Exageration, but it does make My point)

Now, TG you are moving threads. I am wondering if you considered if the people who originated those threads placed them where they did for what they themselves thought as "right". Who are You or Me to say that they are not "right"? Does it really matter?

Alright, you made a case for cleaning up and organising things to Your liking. You are an intelligent guy and have a method of organisation, and a great will to see things in the right place. Great for you. What about U/us scruffy people who also can use O/our own minds and put things where W/we would like to see them? Is there any consulting with the originators of the threads to be moved or removed? If the people involved agree with this I have less of a problem with it. But for an outside authority figure to come in and clean house for the rest of U/us I find disturbing.

Multiple threads with the same or similar topics.... Why is this a problem. I see multiple threads as lots of people with similar neds for information, not something that is annoying and unkempt. Yes, threads do fall to the back pages and thus are not seen. But if you really want an answer to something and looking through the opening pages you do not see it, and you post a new thread asking for similar info, because you really would like some response; is this a bad thing? Are W/we all not here to share, learn and grow?

And that all is for the lurkers as well as the posters. For to open yourself up in a public forum is a bold thing for some. There are many who would rather wait on the sidelines until someone else posts thier problem than to venture forth themselves. There is nothing wrong in this. Some people don't like crowds. Others get a rush akin to a high off of public displays. People are a varied lot.

Again, is this a bad thing? I really do not see an arguement for it being a bad thing that needs to be erradicated by the chosen few. Of course you and Gary have made yourselves moderators, I am not sugesting you seized power in a bloody coup or anything so dramatic, but to choose for the rest of U/us I disagree with. Gods know I do not have the time to be a moderator, nor the technical skill with a computer to be one either. But I do not feel that My words brought into this forum are less valuable than anyone else's because of it.

If I seem a bit touchy on this subject, I am. I know it. Anytime someone else decides what I should or should not read or write I get very defensive. I am sure this was not your intent, but perhaps You could take a step back and look at it from another perspective You could see where I am coming from. And I am here to tell You to chase perfection is pure folly.

Now, TG, I am sure that You are commited to continuing this operation of Yours; and I do not think that My words here will deter you from it. But, I would like You to respond to U/us all. Define your position on why you are doing this, what prompted it to be done and so on. You are an intelligent and articulate guy, so lets hear it. I may not agree with it, but what the hell.

~LT~

[Lord Thomas]

Too tired to get this one in earlier. Just reminded of it...


By erasing what has been written before, is that not the eradication of O/our own historical record as Curtis pointed out?

These are thigns good, bad, worthy, not worthy; of O/our collective pasts. As One with an interest to history, I do not like this.

Getting rid of thigns written is a dangerous practice. But then, "..we have heard these arguements before, Charles."


Alright I promise I am shutting up for now.

LT

[BDSM_Tourguide]

However, I would like to point out that I do more here than just keep the forums free of illegal activities and flame wars. I help people upload avatars and fill out their profile. I help people to locate stories on the story site. I point people in the right directions when they have questions concerning topics that might have been addressed on these forums before. I do quite a bit here, because I care about this site and want it to be a good, well-run place for the members and the guests as well.

That being said, my decision to delete or move certain posts has already been explained. Threads such as those about who will win the world series or happy birthday threads from months before, I don't consider to be a huge loss, as the sentiment can be reiterated when the event rolls around again this year or the next or the next.

As for my moving threads about to areas of the forums that they better belong, what's the problem there? I'm organizing things. My articles on BDSM, for instance, are now all in Knowledge Base, because they are designed to aid peoples' knowledge. Picture threads have gone into Sexual Fantasy, because they are pictures of peoples' fantasies. Someone mentioned earlier that Personal Pictures could have gone into My BDSM Life and they are right, but for the essense of continuity, I left all the picture threads together.

I'm not just arbitrarily deleting things, either. Topics concerning BDSM, sexual fantasies, relationships or advice, I have left alone, just relocated to other areas. In some cases, I have left redirects in the forums to show that they have been moved to make it less confusing for people looking for their favorite threads.

Although, I must ask, in all honesty, when is the last time any of you have taken a look at page seven of the Generalk Talk forum? What was on there? Would you miss it?

Well, I'll tell you what was there. For the most part, every thread there was from more than a year ago. Some were from 2001. None of them had replies with the last several (and by several, I mean at least six) months. A great deal of them had zero replies or only one reply. The loss in these cases was minimal. To label it as censorship is a bit over the top, too. In most cases, there wasn't even anything to censor, just a rambling idea.

Someone before has mentioned about multiple threads on the same topic. I have not encountered any of these so far in my cleaning of General Talk, but when I do, I will not just delete the older threads. I will instead join the threads so all the ideas are maintained. I don't want to take anything out of these forums, except the barest of necessity. And to be honest, I don't see the need for seven, ten or eleven month old happy birthday messages, except to just add another dead thread to the mix and to cause more clutter.

Perhaps I should have kept the flaming threads, locked them and stuck them into a dungeon area where all the bad threads are kept, but I didn't think to do this until after the idea was brought up ealier by Curtis. In any case, threads containing personal insults and derrogatory remarks will eventually disappear in most cases at any rate, because when we ban members, we also tend to delete all their posts at the same time. (Seen anything from Whipit lately?) By the way, I used "we" in that last sentence, because this is what I have been told by Jinn to do when a member is to be banned. Although, normally, Jinn does it himself.

The moderators are not just here to make sure all the kids play nice and that people only post good humored things. We're here to make sure people know where things are, to make sure people know what's allowed and what's not and to enforce the Code of Conduct.

Maintenance is also important. Like anything else, things that are not properly maintained tend to break down. If left for another year or two without some maintenance, the two or three threads that we have that repeat questions and idea previously posted will quickly turn into twelve or fifteen threads. It's just confusing. All I'm doing is a little winter spring cleaning.

Trust me when I say that these changes are not meant to offend and they're not meant to imply that some peoples' ideas are less important than those of other people. If I really thought that way, I would not have deleted 149 of my own posts. Yeah, I kept track. All I want to do is to make sure this place remains organized and easy for new members to find what they're looking for and to make sure the older posters can look in a forum area and find topics relating specifically to that area. It's not about censorship and it's not about beggering things up. It's just about making things more easily accessible.

[~d~]

Not to long ago i responded to a thread by that title...

i went to the suggested threads and after reading them, i even brought some of them from the dark recess of the boards back into the light... as did others....

The point for me is they were there to be brought back.... in deleting threads the history of this place is also being deleted... If Gary, Curtis, Finding Fantasy, Lady Amanda...or any of a dozen others, even for that matter Jinn, had writen that thread would they have chosen the same ones to re-vamp? Maybe... and maybe not... but what is happening is that their choice to do so is being taken away....once the history is gone... it can't be brought back... it can only be rewritten..

*grin* my first post here was under another name... in a thread that was neither important nor particulary earth shattering...but for me it is important because i was made to feel welcome...*grin* by GW....and it kept me coming back... and late at night i occassionally revisit the memory of the welcome i was given here....

anyone else reading, well they would see it as little more than chatter and banter...for me it was a turning point in my world....it holds a special place in my heart... and i would hate to see it lost....

[Finding_Fantasy]

I proposed an archive section where old and inactive threads can be stored. That way, if someone (as ~d~ has pointed out) wants to revisit the past then they are certainly able to.

This way, the thread will not be deleted, just simply put in a palce where they won't clutter everything up. If the thread is re-vamped or revitalized, then they can simply be moved back to their origanal place until such time as they become unused again.

It may not be the perfect solution for everyone and I know it has upset some people that threads have been moved, but it is not a perfect world and compromises need to be made on everyone's part.

However, just because I have suggested it to Jinn does not mean it will happen. He may (and I do not confess to know what he does or does not want) just decide that deleting these old threads is better. I don't know. It's his site and he has the ultimate choice.

What I do ask is that you don't get upset if you like this idea and it doesn't happen. *sighs* I like being the peace maker but I see the potential for this blowing up in my face. If it does turn into a big arguement (my suggestion that is) I take full responsibility for it.

Anyway, I pm'ed Jinn to give him my idea and I await his answer.

[BDSM_Tourguide]

Originally posted by ~d~
Not to long ago i responded to a thread by that title...

I remember that thread. I was the one that wrote it. I wrote it because I want people to re-read some of the good, old on-topic stuff. If you notice, that thread did not have any threads sanctioned for birthdays, flame wars or holiday greetings. They were on topic for BDSM discussions.

The re-vamping thread is now gone, but all of the threads that it contained still exist and if they are gone, I didn't do it. I deleted no on-topic discussion material. I only moved them. And the reason the re-vamping thread is gone is because it only had two replies, one of which was from me to you. The other reason it's gone is because I plan to do another one very soon. I want to highlight some of Gary Wilcox's contributions, some from Lord Thomas and some from some of the older members that don't post here any longer, because these older members might like to see that their threads are being read and come back to the forums for some more discussions.

I'm not singling any members out. I just have noticed some contributions by some members that I would like to see revisited. I don't expect replies to be made to the re-vamping thread. I expect replies to be made within the re-vampoed threads. Eventually, when I do make a new re-vamping thread, it will probably be scheduled for deletion, too, unless that thread receives multiple replies. Which it should not. The targetted threads should.

I appreciate your concerns and your willingness to help out, but really, I'm not deleting anything of significant loss, in my opinion.

[~d~]

Originally posted by BDSM_Tourguide
but really, I'm not deleting anything of significant loss, in my opinion.

I have one really simple request. The posts I have been talking about, well they were actually only three very little simple posts…under a nickname i don't use here any longer...Would it be possible for you to please leave those alone? They honestly don’t take up much space at all and they really and truly do mean a lot to me.

* soft smile *

I know you won’t have any trouble spotting them…


I really and truly am not trying to stir any trouble… but what I do hope is that before anything else is lost that everyone can step back and see that while someone’s birthday thread may have no real meaning to me… to someone else it may have been a moment of significance…it may have been the beginning of a friendship… or the end of one… it may be a moment of bravery for another... and for someone else it may simply be like an old photo… the capturing of a moment in their life that they can take out and just enjoy because it was a moment of light heartedness in a otherwise hard hearted world…and for two people the very same moment can mean two very differnt things....

[Finding_Fantasy]

While it is nice to go back over things and remember shared thoughts and smiles, there are things that I must admitt I am not sad to see go. Things that have caused me a lot of mental anguish, now more so than ever.

A while back, about when I was only a few months pregnant, I had a disagreement of opinion with another member here in the library. I had made a statement contrary to what he believed and he lost control on me.

The problem was not just that he got rude, he got threatening.He even went so far as wishing on me that my yet unborn child would become deformed, or die. That I would be caused great pain and harm. It bothers me now more than it did then because I have gotten to know this little wonder and I assure you, it was greatly disturbing and nearly brought me to tears then. He even went so far as to pm me, email me, andput similar comments in the guestbook on my webpage.

Now, here is my question:

Should a thread with that sort of content be allowed to remain? And if so, what purpose would it serve other than to cause me even more grief? It was one of the threads that was deleted and I, for one, am not sorry to see it go. Just a little thought to chew on regarding wether or not posts should be deleted.