american empire

[Thorne]

"the people" are stupid. "The people" know next to nothing and instead respond almost entirely on emotion and self interest, because "the people" are only as smart as the average person's knowledge on any given subject. If you were to choose subjects at random, the average person will almost certainly know next to nothing on that subject.

I wish I could say you're wrong, but the more I see of "average" people the more saddened I am by their general lack of education and intelligence. And I'm talking about college students here, not just people on the street. The American education system has failed the American people, badly. The handwriting is on the wall, but the "average" American can no longer read it!

No, I don't hear visigoths. However, I wouldn't be surprised if the U.S. falls out of the #1 super power slot in the next 50 years.

I think the modern equivalent of the Visigoths are speaking Spanish these days.

[Matin]

i think they're speaking chinese, and japanese, and french, and german.. russian even.

how much of america can be purchased out from underneath us before it's no longer ours. there's more than one way to wage war.

i have often marveled at how it seems that every other country in the world has import/export tariffs and laws in place that hinder foreigners from coming in and undercutting vital industries. basically in japan any cheaper american product exported to them will sell in their country for an equal or greater price.

this bothers me because america handles this badly in my eyes.

thoughts?

oh and thanks for resurrecting my thread, y'all

[Thorne]

this bothers me because america handles this badly in my eyes.

thoughts?

My only thought, one which I've had often in the past and which still seems relevant today, is that someone is making a good bit of money over this country's lack of matching tarriffs. Whether politicians or industry big-wigs (or both, which is most likely) these kinds of "mistakes" are unlikely unless someone is profiting from it.

And, as usual, the American people are fed a lot of lies and half-truths, and if they begin to see the real truth they are diverted by another scandal, or by the specter of terrorism, or by a "tax rebate".

Our focus has been whittled down to the two minute blurbs on the so-called TV news shows, and pointed at the all-important decision of which brain-dead, untalented freak is going to win American Idol. How far are we from the point where we no longer have any choice in what we do for entertainment? Mandatory watching of the TV monitors, which have become ubiquitous in our society, is just around the corner. Orwell was only off by about 30 years.

[js207]

i think they're speaking chinese, and japanese, and french, and german.. russian even.

how much of america can be purchased out from underneath us before it's no longer ours. there's more than one way to wage war.

i have often marveled at how it seems that every other country in the world has import/export tariffs and laws in place that hinder foreigners from coming in and undercutting vital industries. basically in japan any cheaper american product exported to them will sell in their country for an equal or greater price.

The US has them as well - strict nationality restrictions on airline ownership, ban on using some imported metals on defense contracts (notably titanium, IIRC; I seem to remember that being a problem for Boeing recently) - and just this week I saw the French complaining about the 300% import tax on Roquefort cheese (and various other products of theirs, but the Roquefort tax was the highest and the one they complained about the most).

Indeed, a quick look at the subject will turn up dozens of cases of America imposing these restrictions: Canadian lumber, European cheese, Asian and South American shrimp, Canadian wheat, all foreign steel... Then there are all the agricultural and other subsidies: cotton, sugar, corn, the big tax breaks to Boeing (just as Europe gives them to Airbus)...

[Carpe Coma]

I wish I could say you're wrong, but the more I see of "average" people the more saddened I am by their general lack of education and intelligence. And I'm talking about college students here, not just people on the street. The American education system has failed the American people, badly. The handwriting is on the wall, but the "average" American can no longer read it!

Hah! I wasn't meaning the average individual intelligence, just the ratio of an individual's capacity of understanding to everything that is understood. Since that ratio is very very small, even amongst the brightest, the average person's knowledge on any random subject is going to be abysmal. Combine that with group psychology, and you see why large groups tend to make awful decisions. The few people who do know about that particular subject get drowned out by the vast seas of those who don't. That said, there is a lot that could be done to raise the average person's awareness and ability to think critically about common issues.

I think the modern equivalent of the Visigoths are speaking Spanish these days.

Eh. The U.S. has always been a country of immigrants with a regularly shifting face. This isn't the first time there has been an immigration backlash and it probably won't be the last. The same doom and gloom predictions that are circling now were circling then.

[Thorne]

The U.S. has always been a country of immigrants with a regularly shifting face. This isn't the first time there has been an immigration backlash and it probably won't be the last. The same doom and gloom predictions that are circling now were circling then.

True, we are a nation of immigrants. I'm only third or fourth generation myself, and proud of it. And I don't have a problem with immigration in general, provided it's done legally. My problem is with those, most notably from Central America it seems, who cross the border illegally, get falsified social security cards and other forms of ID, apply for welfare or medical aid or whatever else they can get their hands on, then protest how unfair the US is. And they expect the American people to welcome them with open arms? They expect us to make it easy for them to use their own language?

My great-grandparents, great-great-grandparents, even one grandfather, came to this country from eastern Europe legally. They immediately set about integrating into the American culture, while still maintaining many aspects of their own. They learned to communicate in English without losing their native language. And they became American citizens as soon as they could, proud of their adopted country.

That's they way this country was built, and that's how I think it should continue. But now we are being inundated with illegal immigrants and our politicians won't do anything to stem the tide. In fact, they try to make it legal for these criminals to vote, just so they can be reelected! Shame!

[Matin]

The US has them as well - strict nationality restrictions on airline ownership, ban on using some imported metals on defense contracts (notably titanium, IIRC; I seem to remember that being a problem for Boeing recently) - and just this week I saw the French complaining about the 300% import tax on Roquefort cheese (and various other products of theirs, but the Roquefort tax was the highest and the one they complained about the most).

Indeed, a quick look at the subject will turn up dozens of cases of America imposing these restrictions: Canadian lumber, European cheese, Asian and South American shrimp, Canadian wheat, all foreign steel... Then there are all the agricultural and other subsidies: cotton, sugar, corn, the big tax breaks to Boeing (just as Europe gives them to Airbus)...

you're right of course, but then there are the ones that confuse the hell out of me. biggest example cars. it's all doom and gloom because they undercut us to hell and gone, but the restrictions aren't there to prevent it.

i love my toyota, seriously the only way to make me buy a ford is to make the toyota unavailable, or otherwise unattractive.

and now something else. anyone here a michael crighton fan? just reread rising sun and that's what promted my initial comment on eco-warfare.

[Carpe Coma]

True, we are a nation of immigrants. I'm only third or fourth generation myself, and proud of it. And I don't have a problem with immigration in general, provided it's done legally. My problem is with those, most notably from Central America it seems, who cross the border illegally, get falsified social security cards and other forms of ID, apply for welfare or medical aid or whatever else they can get their hands on, then protest how unfair the US is. And they expect the American people to welcome them with open arms? They expect us to make it easy for them to use their own language?

The vast majority of people that cross the border illegally don't do it to mooch off of the social systems. People that unmotivated tend to not to bother leaving the comfort of their own home.

My great-grandparents, great-great-grandparents, even one grandfather, came to this country from eastern Europe legally. They immediately set about integrating into the American culture, while still maintaining many aspects of their own. They learned to communicate in English without losing their native language. And they became American citizens as soon as they could, proud of their adopted country.

And many others from immigration heavy periods didn't, at least not at first. Due to the natural development of ethnic pockets, it was possible for quite a few immigrants to only have to learn a smattering of English, if any at all.

That's they way this country was built, and that's how I think it should continue. But now we are being inundated with illegal immigrants and our politicians won't do anything to stem the tide. In fact, they try to make it legal for these criminals to vote, just so they can be reelected! Shame!

Yes, the politicians trying to give illegal immigrants the right to vote is purely a self-serving measure. We are inundated with illegals because the legal requirements are extremely restrictive and there is a very strong desire to immigrate. The desire is strong enough that there are immigration problems throughout central America as people push north. However, short of possibly shooting them on sight, it isn't going to be possible to stem the tide as a lot of them feel they have little, if anything, to lose.

The best solution is probably going to be one that no one likes. Personally, I think we should have a "yellow card" or second class immigration to go with the standard immigration along with a "touch home" policy like there is in Florida. Immigrants would be freely admitted as second class if they were in good standing with their country of origin (No significant debts, outstanding warrants, felony convictions, etc). In exchange for this easier entry policy, they would be required to attend and progress in ESL classes (unless they can demonstrate a certain level of English proficiency), have restricted access to social services until naturalized, and a somewhat longer naturalization time. Felony convictions or failing to progress in the naturalization process leads to a quick trip back across the border and revocation of their eligibility.

The benefit to this is that it gets everything above the radar (which means taxes get paid, licenses get issued, etc), and finds a less disruptive way to channel the issue.

[Carpe Coma]

you're right of course, but then there are the ones that confuse the hell out of me. biggest example cars. it's all doom and gloom because they undercut us to hell and gone, but the restrictions aren't there to prevent it.

There were restrictions. From the early 1980s to 1994, Japan had a "voluntary export restriction" on their autos (it was "voluntary" in order to not violate GATT). This was begged for by the big three so they could get their act together when japanese autos took off in the U.S. due to the oil crisis of the 70s. The big three have had 20+ years to catch up. My pity has long since expired.

[Thorne]

The vast majority of people that cross the border illegally don't do it to mooch off of the social systems. People that unmotivated tend to not to bother leaving the comfort of their own home.

Unless they're forced out, which seems to be happening in some of the Central American countries. Rather than deal with their criminal elements, they make it easier for them to move north and become our problem.

However, short of possibly shooting them on sight, it isn't going to be possible to stem the tide as a lot of them feel they have little, if anything, to lose.

I wouldn't advocate shooting on sight, that's for sure. But if we started billing the Mexican government for every illegal we have to send back across the border, pretty soon the Mexican government will start keeping them out. It will be cheaper for them to educate and find jobs for them than it would be to pay the US for sending them back.

Personally, I think we should have a "yellow card" or second class immigration to go with the standard immigration ...

Actually, I think I like the sound of that. As long as they can find work and keep within the law, pay taxes and at least make an effort to become naturalized citizens, I have no problem with it.

[js207]

you're right of course, but then there are the ones that confuse the hell out of me. biggest example cars. it's all doom and gloom because they undercut us to hell and gone, but the restrictions aren't there to prevent it.

i love my toyota, seriously the only way to make me buy a ford is to make the toyota unavailable, or otherwise unattractive.

Where do you think that Toyota is made? Their Alabama plant? Or maybe the Kentucky one, or Indiana, or Texas, or West Virginia. It can't have been made in the Mississippi plant yet, but if you buy another Toyota in a couple of years it could be. Buying Toyota does not mean buying a car made overseas - just that you're buying one not grown in a cocoon of UAW red tape.

[leo9]

Buying Toyota does not mean buying a car made overseas - just that you're buying one not grown in a cocoon of UAW red tape.

And there I always imagined that the Big Three's failure to design cars for any time later than 1980 (even when it meant creating a brand new class of vehicle to get round fuel efficiency laws) was down to management. I had no idea the unions were so powerful.

[leo9]

Hah! I wasn't meaning the average individual intelligence, just the ratio of an individual's capacity of understanding to everything that is understood. Since that ratio is very very small, even amongst the brightest, the average person's knowledge on any random subject is going to be abysmal.

And in sane societies, the recognition of this long-standing fact leads people to consult experts. In insane societies, it's an article of faith that everyone's opinion is as good as the next, and anyone who claims to know better just because he's studied the subject for years and done all the research is "elitist".

That said, there is a lot that could be done to raise the average person's awareness and ability to think critically about common issues.

A few schools teach critical thinking. They're always private and marginalised, because the state and business want schools to teach uncritical acceptance of what you're told.

This isn't the first time there has been an immigration backlash and it probably won't be the last. The same doom and gloom predictions that are circling now were circling then.

Too true. The panic that the US would be taken over by the Irish lasted well into the 20th century, and had its last echoes in worries over Kennedy's Catholicism. Before that, both the English and Americans were afraid we would be overrun by the Chinese. And now I've had apparently sane Americans tell me quite seriously that France has been taken over by Muslims (presumably to explain why the cheese-eaters wouldn't join the Willing) and England is about to go the same way. So it goes on.

[js207]

And there I always imagined that the Big Three's failure to design cars for any time later than 1980 (even when it meant creating a brand new class of vehicle to get round fuel efficiency laws) was down to management. I had no idea the unions were so powerful.

If you mean SUVs, that "creating a brand new class of vehicle" was one of their few successes, actually making an effort to build cars they could still sell for a profit, even with the inflated per-unit costs imposed in part by the UAW. Building the smaller, cheaper, more fuel-efficient cars you might prefer them to build was economically a non-starter - but the higher margins on SUVs made them viable, indeed the lifeline which kept the Big Three going until very recently. For that matter, you'll find the foreign manufacturers make them too - not because they're in on the evil conspiracy to use mind-control rays to make people endure those big luxury vehicles they don't really want, but because they were what people did want.

As for powerful - yes, of course the UAW have a chokehold on the Big Three. How many non-union plants do they have in the US? Do you have any idea just how much it controls them, down to being able to block plant closures, shift changes and personnel decisions? It's a miracle they've survived this long.

[leo9]

Building the smaller, cheaper, more fuel-efficient cars you might prefer them to build was economically a non-starter

So why did people keep buying them, in the face of everything the advertisers could do to convince them that it was still 1950 and mileage didn't matter?

but the higher margins on SUVs made them viable, indeed the lifeline which kept the Big Three going until very recently.

Those higher margins were only there because, by pretending they were pickup trucks, SUVs could dodge the mandatory fuel efficiency rules. The only reason the class was created was so they could go on sticking big low-comression engines into them.

For that matter, you'll find the foreign manufacturers make them too - not because they're in on the evil conspiracy to use mind-control rays to make people endure those big luxury vehicles they don't really want, but because they were what people did want.

So if nobody really wanted those little fuel-efficient cars, why are the companies that made them surviving, while the companies that didn't, are waiting with their tin bowls in the Government free money line? Is the AUW some kind of eco-terrorist front that only targeted SUV makers?

[js207]

So why did people keep buying them, in the face of everything the advertisers could do to convince them that it was still 1950 and mileage didn't matter?

I'm not saying there was no market for the econoboxes - just that the Big Three couldn't make them profitably because of their higher overheads. People kept buying SUVs, too, until fuel prices went silly.

Those higher margins were only there because, by pretending they were pickup trucks, SUVs could dodge the mandatory fuel efficiency rules. The only reason the class was created was so they could go on sticking big low-comression engines into them.

No, the margins have nothing to do with fuel efficiency rules - they're about how much customers are prepared to pay, versus the costs involved. (Yes, a different tax regime could have either squeezed margins and/or pushed prices higher, but that's really not relevant here.) It's more a case of the class having been created to keep delivering the big cars the market wanted at the time without being gouged by the silly fuel consumption taxes which were imposed on equally powerful non-SUV cars.

So if nobody really wanted those little fuel-efficient cars, why are the companies that made them surviving, while the companies that didn't, are waiting with their tin bowls in the Government free money line? Is the AUW some kind of eco-terrorist front that only targeted SUV makers?

The Government and exploding fuel prices finally managed to kill off the Big Three's main cash cow - and the UAW targeted American car makers, forcing their costs up making smaller cars uneconomical for them to make. Now, the small car manufacturers are still making them and making a profit - the companies which couldn't make them profitably before still can't, but no longer have the alternative market segment open to them either.

[Matin]

nice tangent y'all

any thoughts on how losing this huge industry to foreign companies can affect america's economic stability?

[js207]

nice tangent y'all

any thoughts on how losing this huge industry to foreign companies can affect america's economic stability?

Very little, I imagine: the Toyota may be "foreign", but still builds cars in America employing American workers just like Ford and GM, only without the UAW ball and chain - and presumably Toyota will have some American shareholders while Ford has Japanese ones, so not much change there either.