A question of methods

[tessa]

A reply in another thread made me wonder about something.

A post was made about cigarette torture, and one reply said it bordered the line between play and abuse. Now I'm not a fan of cigarettes in any form, whether for play or otherwise. That said, it seems to me that this style of activity is not much different than other forms of extreme play. (Now just because it's called "play" doesn't mean it shouldn't be taken seriously. All consideration and care must be utilized, of course.) Sure, it's severe, but to call it abuse? It seems to me that to term something abusive would denote a lack of pleasure and consent for at least one of the participants. So, as long as everyone involved (with the caveat that "everyone" means those of legal age who are cognizantly able to consent) are good with the happenings, how can it be called abusive? And what about knife play, piercings, and heavy beatings with single tail? Certainly there are real elements of torture to be had in those acts, right?

So my question, I think, is this- Given the nature of the BDSM beast, can severe and extreme forms of sexual play even be subject to such "abusive" labeling?

(Whether you think yes or no, would you explain why?)

[SOUTHERN GENTLEMAN]

I find it alittle overboard. The burn can scar. I don't want to do anything that leaves perminant marks. However, if the people invovled consent. who am I to tell them their wrong. What may be abusive to on may be mild to another.

[Lisais mine]

I guess that is up to the couple. "abuse" is a label. there are things that I might view as abusive and others wouldn't. How many times have we heard a sub say spanking isn't punishment, because they like it too much?
funny though, I am really against spanking you kids..... it really pisses me off to see parents spanking their kids or verbally abusing them.

Now having said that, I feel "abusive" about using verbal humiliation. I really can't do it. I"m a southern boy- politeness is bred into my bones.

extreme? what does that really mean?
I really have to agree with you- it is up to the persons involved. then again, it is possible to get someone who wants to please you to do things they wouldn't normally do.....

[SOUTHERN GENTLEMAN]

I find it alittle overboard. Burns can scar. I don't want to do any thing that leaves perminant marks. However, if the people involved censent to it who am I to tell them they are wrong. What one person thinks is abusive another will think it's mild.

Ok I did something wrong.Sorry about the double reply

[Flaming_Redhead]

It surely can and often is. I find it a bit ironic that people who think what it is that we do is normal and shouldn't be classified as a mental illness, people who think the police and the law shouldn't be able to tell them what to do in the privacy of their own home, are often guilty of judging others in the lifestyle who aren't fluffy pink bondage bunnies. Of course, when you post something on a public forum, you're going to get all kinds of opinions, the good, the bad, and the ugly. I think people need to remember that your kink may not be my kink and vice versa. Before you start pointing fingers and crying "illegal" or "abuse," remember that in most places you can't consent to battery, that you can be prosecuted without your partner pressing charges, that your partner can be prosecuted for obstruction of justice/aiding and abetting, etc.

Yes, we are some sick fucks! Get over it or go back to reading Harlequin romance novels.

[Lisais mine]

Yes, we are some sick fucks! Get over it or go back to reading Harlequin romance novels.

thank you Red! )

[cadence]

I was thinking the exact same thing when I read that post as well.

I would say that you can state that a certain type of "play" is abusive, but you must also state as to the reasons why you think it abusive.

For me to say something is along the lines of abuse, is exactly what you said

It seems to me that to term something abusive would denote a lack of pleasure and consent for at least one of the participants.

If both parties agree to it, why or how could it be construed as abuse?
If you want to say that someone who wishes to put out cigarettes on another is bordering on extreme play and that people who wish to try need to know all of the implications of this type of play, then sure I'm all for it.

Now there are as lisais mine said people who will go above and beyond what is required of them.
To me that is just plain stupidity, if you want to do something that is sure to do you unwanted harm, emotionally or physically then I would have to ask why are you an idiot?
I have done questionable things, have attempted questionable things, but I always know the risks, and I am fully prepared to deal with the consequences. I won't go beyond what I know I can't do.

It's like verbal humiliation, I love it but others don't always understand how anyone can get off being verbally assaulted.
The words trash, worthless and whore are absolute favourites of mine, but I know that others cannot grasp why I enjoy them.
In turn I sometimes cannot understand how others would enjoy certain types of play, but I at least try.

It all comes down to each his own really, and as long as that is what YOU and the other person wants, as long as YOU know the implications of that type of play, and as long as YOU are completely fine with it, then I don't see it as being abuse.

We all do things that at times may damage something, be it scars on skin, becoming ill, or emotionally breaking, but that is up to the individual to take care of themselves and to know and be prepared for the risks involved.
What's fine for me may not be for you, and vice versa, but I won't lecture you on how it's gross, evil, nasty or wrong.

[Pearlgem]

extreme? what does that really mean?
I really have to agree with you- it is up to the persons involved. then again, it is possible to get someone who wants to please you to do things they wouldn't normally do.....

Now there are as lisais mine said people who will go above and beyond what is required of them.
To me that is just plain stupidity, if you want to do something that is sure to do you unwanted harm, emotionally or physically then I would have to ask why are you an idiot?
I have done questionable things, have attempted questionable things, but I always know the risks, and I am fully prepared to deal with the consequences. I won't go beyond what I know I can't do.

I sometimes cannot understand how others would enjoy certain types of play, but I at least try.

It all comes down to each his own really, and as long as that is what YOU and the other person wants, as long as YOU know the implications of that type of play, and as long as YOU are completely fine with it, then I don't see it as being abuse.

We all do things that at times may damage something, be it scars on skin, becoming ill, or emotionally breaking, but that is up to the individual to take care of themselves and to know and be prepared for the risks involved.
What's fine for me may not be for you, and vice versa, but I won't lecture you on how it's gross, evil, nasty or wrong.

But I think you just did, cadence. Surely a great many subs who 'want to please will do things they wouldn't normally do'? Why do you assume that must be 'idiotic', 'stupid' and 'harmful'? It may be, but must it be? You will not be the only one who takes these sorts of risks carefully, I'm sure. I most certainly am driven to go beyond the bounds of what I would choose if I could (romantically?) choose my own domination, but thank goodness it's in the hands of another whom I trust to take me beyond myself but not to fundamentally harm me. I read of practices on here every day that are just not for me but I have learned not to react with disgust or horror - I just shut up, it's not my kink.

I think any abuse probably has to be deliberate - the Dom/me is a wannabe, is criminally lacking in knowledge, s/he knows but just doesn't care how badly the sub reacts or s/he refuses to acknowledge refusal. I think subs can abuse Doms by not telling them the truth about themselves. I don't believe abuse is anything to do with extreme play per se.

[cadence]

But I think you just did, cadence. Surely a great many subs who 'want to please will do things they wouldn't normally do'? Why do you assume that must be 'idiotic', 'stupid' and 'harmful'? It may be, but must it be? You will not be the only one who takes these sorts of risks carefully, I'm sure. I most certainly am driven to go beyond the bounds of what I would choose if I could (romantically?) choose my own domination, but thank goodness it's in the hands of another whom I trust to take me beyond myself but not to fundamentally harm me. I read of practices on here every day that are just not for me but I have learned not to react with disgust or horror - I just shut up, it's not my kink.

You're right, that is a hypocritcal way to say something, and a bit too blunt. But I am referring to those submissives who blindly do whatever it is they are told. They blindly believe thier Dominant won't harm them because they feel because they are submissive and the other is Dominant that things will be fine.
I wasn't refering to pushing a limit or boundry that is scary but doable.

I myself am guilty of attempting things that I was asked to do, that could have had potential dangers, and yes I would declare that as stupid. I am fully accountable for myself really and I won't actually do something that I know is not for me, I won't do it because he said so and he wants it.

It's okay to state the safe, sane and consenual ways to do things, and to advise others that some things we do can do permanent damage.
I find that there are some submissives who clearly think that because the Dominant said it was okay, that it will be okay.
A submissive should do something because they consent to try it, not because someone else told them to.

[tessa]

I think any abuse probably has to be deliberate - the Dom/me is a wannabe, is criminally lacking in knowledge, s/he knows but just doesn't care how badly the sub reacts or s/he refuses to acknowledge refusal. I think subs can abuse Doms by not telling them the truth about themselves. I don't believe abuse is anything to do with extreme play per se.

Excellently stated, especially the deliberate and refusal aspects. Those are the blanks I couldn't fill in for myself. Thank you.

A submissive should do something because they consent to try it, not because someone else told them to.

Exactly that as well. Keeps the "idiot" factor, as it were, completely at bay.

[oww-that-hurt]

The mental state and maturity of the, eh, abusee???, must be taken into account. Some folks just aren't wired correctly and can't actually make proper decisions by themselves. Those folks are often taken advantage of by others. Then it is abuse. My wiring is okay, and keep those cigs away! My decision. Hard edge.

[jeanne]

I think subs can abuse Doms by not telling them the truth about themselves.

Wow. That's got to be in the top 10 smartest things I've read on the forums. In fact, I think I'll start a thread about it. I'd love to hear others thoughts.

[Euryleia]

I agree with most of the posters that just because another may consider some behavior extreme, doesn't make that behavior abusive. However, I do think that abuse can occur in BDSM relationships. Just because you've consented to one thing, doesn't mean you consent to everything that follows or that you can't withdraw consent as necessary for health and/or sanity.

That brings up my next point: There are some who submit beyond their ability to maintain perspective. Their movement to the next stage isn't so much agreement or need or desire but, rather, based on the fact that they didn't say no last time and don't know how to say no this time. Whether from how they are wired or how their previous partners have molded their behavior, some people do get in over their heads. Permanent body modifications (like with scars from cigarette burns) need to be well discussed beforehand and care should be taken to minimize infection with antibiotic burn cream and clean dressings as part of aftercare.

I think informed consent is the main difference between play (no matter how consent) and abuse. Further, consent must be reached before play starts and pushing limits when your submissive is half out of their mind wanting to cum is borderline abusive.

Speaking from my own experience, when I was just starting out, I was pushed far beyond my limits by my first Domme. She used my body's natural response to stimulation to guilt me into believing that I enjoyed what was happening (ie "you wouldn't have climaxed if you didn't like it.") Luckily, I had a support network to help me out of that situation and teach me about limits, safewords and safety. I just worry that, even with the availability of online forums like this, there are other newbies that don't learn the lesson before they get burned.

[tessa]

That brings up my next point: There are some who submit beyond their ability to maintain perspective. Their movement to the next stage isn't so much agreement or need or desire but, rather, based on the fact that they didn't say no last time and don't know how to say no this time. Whether from how they are wired or how their previous partners have molded their behavior, some people do get in over their heads. I think informed consent is the main difference between play (no matter how consent) and abuse. Further, consent must be reached before play starts and pushing limits when your submissive is half out of their mind wanting to cum is borderline abusive.

While I can comprehend this concept and agree with it on some level, the true reality for me is personal responsibility for everyone involved. No, a Dom should not push limits at the point of ultimate vulnerability, but neither should the submissive be willing to succumb to such manipulative pressure. Maybe it's abuse from each side?

Speaking from my own experience, when I was just starting out, I was pushed far beyond my limits by my first Domme. She used my body's natural response to stimulation to guilt me into believing that I enjoyed what was happening (ie "you wouldn't have climaxed if you didn't like it.") Luckily, I had a support network to help me out of that situation and teach me about limits, safewords and safety. I just worry that, even with the availability of online forums like this, there are other newbies that don't learn the lesson before they get burned.

Information like this is priceless. My thanks to you for sharing.