Living A Sugarcoated Lifestyle?

[bunkerchief]

Well I was going to respond to each post in turn but don't have the time right now but I think my post has been vindicated by the amount of thought and detail of the replies. The post was deliberately provocative for that reason.

It makes for a far more interesting board when there are provocative and thought provoking posts than just slapping the back of the person who had just posted.

Actually the experience I talk about started 16 years ago and though we are not a pair any more we do still get together and play, such is the intensity of our mutual experience.

Should you read your replies then you will see my conclusion is right and that BDSM for the most part is an ersatz experience. I never said that was a bad or a good thing, I merely made the satement that that was the nature of it.

[Tojo]

I think you're about to hear some rebuttal on your stats b.c. It may be true if you include all the wannabe's posers, and trolls. But the true subs believe they far outnumber the true Doms.

Regardless, it always takes "two to tango," lifestyle or not. It has nothing to do with 'BDSM being ersatz or sugarcoated unless you remove consent...' unless you believe all sexual encounters to be such. The requirement for consent appears to me to be built into just about all the warmblooded fauna in the world... with the female being the one who ultimately chooses. Afterall, the female is the biggest risktaker. She sacrifices more time and life-energy to create, protect, and nurture the offspring...

Human sexuality may not always be about procreation, but the "dance" we dance is certainly rooted in it.

Thanks Oz that saves me a heap of typing. Thanks also to Aesop' subwife & Brosco, hitting the nail right on the head yet again.

As for subs being less numerous than Doms- well perhaps if you include 'guys what wanna push some bitch around' yes that may be true. My experience is that for every true caring Dom, there's enough subs to keep him real busy...


Tojo

[bunkerchief]

Regardless, it always takes "two to tango," lifestyle or not. It has nothing to do with 'BDSM being ersatz or sugarcoated unless you remove consent...' unless you believe all sexual encounters to be such. The requirement for consent appears to me to be built into just about all the warmblooded fauna in the world... with the female being the one who ultimately chooses. Afterall, the female is the biggest risktaker. She sacrifices more time and life-energy to create, protect, and nurture the offspring...

You are just reinforcing my point here, that the title of Dom is a misnomer as Doms don't have the power (legally) to subject a sub to their will. Therefore bdsm IS an ersatz experience!

[Brosco]

Should you read your replies then you will see my conclusion is right and that BDSM for the most part is an ersatz experience. I never said that was a bad or a good thing, I merely made the satement that that was the nature of it.

Sorry buddy... but perhaps it is you that needs to read the replies. Your post is absolute crap (i was polite previously). To justify sweeping condemnation of all BDSMers because it doesn't suit your tastes is childish. To justify your post as a deliberate controversy rather than taking responsibility for your ill-conceived opinions is a weak cop out.

You contradict yourself and have failed to answer a single question raised by any that responded to you. Sorry, but you really have demonstrated you have no clue about D/s.

This board is friendly and polite - I accept I have overstepped the mark, but it is important to me that new subbies that are here to learn don't think your version of abuse is an acceptable norm.

Brosco

[bunkerchief]

Sorry buddy... but perhaps it is you that needs to read the replies. Your post is absolute crap (i was polite previously). To justify sweeping condemnation of all BDSMers because it doesn't suit your tastes is childish. To justify your post as a deliberate controversy rather than taking responsibility for your ill-conceived opinions is a weak cop out.

You contradict yourself and have failed to answer a single question raised by any that responded to you. Sorry, but you really have demonstrated you have no clue about D/s.

This board is friendly and polite - I accept I have overstepped the mark, but it is important to me that new subbies that are here to learn don't think your version of abuse is an acceptable norm.

Brosco

Sorry buddy but your reading and thinking are shoddy. I did not condemn BDSMers or if I did, point out where.

The OP made by someone I know very very well, though I haven't seen her around for awhile and to which I was answering and even if I didn't know her it is irrelevent, SHE is obviously aware of the internal contradictions of consensual BDSM or SHE wouldn't have made the post.

YOU really ought to think. If this site is a slap your friend on the back site, perhaps you should say that in the forum rules.

I have insulted no one until now because you are not worth the effort to insult.

[Brosco]

I have insulted no one until now because you are not worth the effort to insult.

LOL... well done... an insult that can be denied.... now be a good little Dom... if you want to insult me, simply email me directly at:
tau@grapevine.com.au


but please keep your crap off this forum, your lack of knowledge is very damaging to newbies

Brosco

[bunkerchief]

but please keep your crap of this forum, your lack of knowledge is very damaging to newbies

Brosco

Aah so you are grooming the newbies and worried that I would upset that grooming. If they are really into BDSM then grooming is not required and exposure to a little hard edged thinking should be a welcome plus to their education.

[VixeyandPhoenix]

Let differing views create confusion in all. I like to tie Vixey up and spank her ass from time to time. I have no desire to rape her or do anything against her will. I must be a faker. She too must be fake as she does not go out looking for someone to take advantage of her.

There are verying degrees in all things in this world. Every sunset does not look the same, so does that mean that orange sunsets are not as real as red ones? Let people live their lives and do not try to label them, that is for highschool when you were a jock, stoner or geek.

Forgive me for redundancy but, any relationship is a partnership. There is equal power held by both partners in BDSM. The sub gives her submission, the dom takes it and wields his power with respect. Judging from what I have seen and heard in this world you can find a partner willing to do just about anything. If you want a girl that will go as far as you want to then keep searching. Everyone loves their own brand, so don't call it ersatz, it is just their style of play.

In BC's defense, he used a euphemism. Leave him alone about refering to it as the scene of the crime. I myself would put it in such a dramatic way, I can see it as an obvious bit of word play.

[Brosco]

smiles BC, you have no clue. You see, you posted originally with your 'One-true-way' and now have avoided all that questioned it. You have no answers... just selfrighteous crap.

I notice also that having given you my email addie, you have a need to post here. Is that ego? You think you will 'win'???

Please... if you want to continue posting here.. at least answer the questions asked of you.. you may salvage a little credibility

Brosco

[Aesop]

Well I was going to respond to each post in turn but don't have the time right now but I think my post has been vindicated by the amount of thought and detail of the replies. The post was deliberately provocative for that reason.

It makes for a far more interesting board when there are provocative and thought provoking posts than just slapping the back of the person who had just posted.

Actually the experience I talk about started 16 years ago and though we are not a pair any more we do still get together and play, such is the intensity of our mutual experience.

Should you read your replies then you will see my conclusion is right and that BDSM for the most part is an ersatz experience. I never said that was a bad or a good thing, I merely made the satement that that was the nature of it.

So your post was provacative for a reason. Well then you must be happy with yourself because you have provoked us. Good for you bunkerchief. Sadly though as I read through our responses I still don't see your conclusion as right. Calling BDSM an ersatz experience is calling it a substitute or imitation. Again I have to ask (which I see you never did reply to) an imitation of what?

That was just Aesop posting. The rest is the supermod.

Keep your personal insults off the board bunkerchief. Disagreement is allowed and even encouraged here, but I will not have the disagreements degenerate into flames.

Brosco: Keep a cooler head my friend. I don't want to call out the mod guns on you either.

[bunkerchief]

I've got nothing to answer, if my refering to what Vixeyandphoenix pointed out 'returning to the scene of the crime' that was merely an expression that perhaps was sloppy in the circumstances and could be misinterpreted as literally scene of the crime.

My email is axelsteijger@hotmail.com

As for you refering to my self righteous crap, that is normal mud slinging by someone who has no counter argument in a discussion or debate and is more a political defence.

[Brosco]

Aah so you are grooming the newbies and worried that I would upset that grooming. If they are really into BDSM then grooming is not required and exposure to a little hard edged thinking should be a welcome plus to their education.

again you show your ignorance.

Yes I have been a mentor to a few subbies (do you know what a mentor is?)

I agree that newbies should be made aware of all extremes... and it is not for me to make their decision for them. A mentor (or a person posting in a 'Knowledge Base' thread) describes or displays options - not describes his One-True-Way. You see, this is where the objection is - not what your (pathetic) tastes are - but you want to impose your beliefs on all others. You state your values as fact ... sorry buddy .... it aint true.

[bunkerchief]

So your post was provacative for a reason. Well then you must be happy with yourself because you have provoked us. Good for you bunkerchief. Sadly though as I read through our responses I still don't see your conclusion as right. Calling BDSM an ersatz experience is calling it a substitute or imitation. Again I have to ask (which I see you never did reply to) an imitation of what?

That was just Aesop posting. The rest is the supermod.

Keep your personal insults off the board bunkerchief. Disagreement is allowed and even encouraged here, but I will not have the disagreements degenerate into flames.

Brosco: Keep a cooler head my friend. I don't want to call out the mod guns on you either.

BDSM. Bondage, domination, sadism, masochism. By implication these terms do not involve consent, hence I assume the reason for the original post. The very fact that we consent to these activities make them ersatz as opposed to the genuine activities and hence an imitation of the real thing. As I have pointed out, I was neutral on saying this was a good or bad thing but merely made a statement. If everyone has to agree with the each others perception of the world, why have a forum where such things can be discussed?

As for insults, I haven't made any or only an implied insult in response to an insult being thrown at me several times.

[Brosco]

I've got nothing to answer, if my refering to what Vixeyandphoenix pointed out 'returning to the scene of the crime' that was merely an expression that perhaps was sloppy in the circumstances and could be misinterpreted as literally scene of the crime.

My email is axelsteijger@hotmail.com

As for you refering to my self righteous crap, that is normal mud slinging by someone who has no counter argument in a discussion or debate and is more a political defence.

Go for it kid... several ppl responded to you and asked you questions... but you ignored them all.

lets see... a few asked...
what is the 'real thing' to you?
i asked about consent with your ex

there was many more questions... but you fail dismally

Brosco

[bunkerchief]

Go for it kid... several ppl responded to you and asked you questions... but you ignored them all.

lets see... a few asked...
what is the 'real thing' to you?
i asked about consent with your ex

there was many more questions... but you fail dismally

Brosco

The real thing is actual incarceration, beating or whatever, which as we all know is illegal. The fact I said BDSM is not the real thing does not mean or imply I believe in the real thing. Your shoddy thinking and prejudice against my post led you jump to that conclusion.

[Brosco]

Brosco: Keep a cooler head my friend. I don't want to call out the mod guns on you either.

smiles... i do sincerely apologise... i knew i was pushing it, but i couldn't help myself. I promise, i will leave this to others, no matter how much it riles me.

Brosco

[Aesop]

BDSM. Bondage, domination, sadism, masochism. By implication these terms do not involve consent, hence I assume the reason for the original post. The very fact that we consent to these activities make them ersatz as opposed to the genuine activities and hence an imitation of the real thing. As I have pointed out, I was neutral on saying this was a good or bad thing but merely made a statement. If everyone has to agree with the each others perception of the world, why have a forum where such things can be discussed?

As for insults, I haven't made any or only an implied insult in response to an insult being thrown at me several times.

Bondage: Being tied up or restrained. Yep I do that to her. Sadism:Taking pleasure in inflicting pain upon another person. Yep I enjoy inflicting pain on her. Masochism: Taking pleasure in having pain inflicted upon oneself. Yep she enjoys it as much (if not more) than I do. Domination is perhaps the only one that is open to debate because she does initially agree to give up the control. But once the decision is made the control belongs to me and I use it for my pleasure so I don't know that I can call that false or an imitation.

No insults eh? Shoddy thinking ring a bell? Leave the insults out of it. This is your last warning.

[bunkerchief]

Bondage: Being tied up or restrained. Yep I do that to her. Sadism:Taking pleasure in inflicting pain upon another person. Yep I enjoy inflicting pain on her. Masochism: Taking pleasure in having pain inflicted upon oneself. Yep she enjoys it as much (if not more) than I do. Domination is perhaps the only one that is open to debate because she does initially agree to give up the control. But once the decision is made the control belongs to me and I use it for my pleasure so I don't know that I can call that false or an imitation.

While the three activities you mention are all physical and hence one does or not do them, certainly most people I know in BDSM part take in these activities with a consenting partner as a substitute for (in their fantasies at least) of doing them without a consenting partner. The woman I tie up and gag and many of her friends who enjoy similar, say it is an activity they fantasize about and wouldn't like it to happen to them for 'real'. Hence why I described such activities as ersatz.

I readily accept that is not the whole picture. My interest in shibari is as much to do with my interest in the craft and its aesthetics and while the process has the affect of giving my sub a high, there is one part of my liking for bondage (in my fantasy at least) to tie up an unwilling woman as is the fantasy of my sub to be tied up by a malicious male.

[Aesop]

Hmm...not bad points, but for one thing not all of us desire unwilling partners. I get off on knowing that she wants it. When I tell her to do some humiliating thing and on top it looks like she is suffering, but underneath I can see her enjoyment it gives me pleasure.

Secondly what you are talking about seems to me to be the difference between reality and fantasy. Sure I've fantasized about non-consensual activities, but that's not BDSM, that's a rape fantasy or a kidnapping fantasy and I don't associate my fantasies with my real life. When I'm in a situation with a real person my mind and body are there with the person, not off in a fantasy world, so I can't really compare the two as being one from the other.

[submissivewife]

Fantasies are just that fantasies. Real life is real life. One must separate the two or you break the law or worse the person.

What it sounds like bunkercheif is that your having a hard time separating fantasy from real life. One that would rather have an unwilling person than one that is consensual needs some real help and and isn't practicing bdsm as I see it.

[Brosco]

My interest in shibari is as much to do with my interest in the craft and its aesthetics and while the process has the affect of giving my sub a high, there is one part of my liking for bondage (in my fantasy at least) to tie up an unwilling woman as is the fantasy of my sub to be tied up by a malicious male.

Please correct me if I am mistaken, but from my understanding Shibari requires a willing victim or it would be very 'messy' on a struggling victim. Didn't you suggest that consent was not one of your ideals?

[bunkerchief]

Hmm...not bad points, but for one thing not all of us desire unwilling partners. I get off on knowing that she wants it. When I tell her to do some humiliating thing and on top it looks like she is suffering, but underneath I can see her enjoyment it gives me pleasure.

Secondly what you are talking about seems to me to be the difference between reality and fantasy. Sure I've fantasized about non-consensual activities, but that's not BDSM, that's a rape fantasy or a kidnapping fantasy and I don't associate my fantasies with my real life. When I'm in a situation with a real person my mind and body are there with the person, not off in a fantasy world, so I can't really compare the two as being one from the other.

There is an element of the difference between fantasy and desire which I think is crucial to the whole debate. How real is real and how real is fantasy. The two obvioiusly merge at a point and it as which point that is the debate. Is it a perceived difference or an actual difference. My view is it is more to an actual difference but I accept that can be an endless debate.

I am up to speed with you when you say when you are in a situation with a real person that you are totally with that person. I am too.

One of the prompts for my starting all this apart from knowing the person who made the OP, is that both myself and my partner have at times come to the conclusion that scenes fail, not because reality interfers but fantasy doesn't answer the questions our fantasies pose. If that makes any kind of sense.

No I'm not mixing fantasy and reality SW. I'm just airing what passes through my mind and others tend not to discuss for fear of being accused of being psycho.

[Brosco]

There is a very big difference between reality and fantasy. many people have fantasies that are way to extreme for them to endure in reality.

To me scenes cannot fail because of a fantisy, unless you are into roleplaying (and thus, ongoing fantasy) - scenes fail purely because of a desired mindset - and that is far different to fantasy

Brosco

[bunkerchief]

To me scenes cannot fail because of a fantisy, unless you are into roleplaying (and thus, ongoing fantasy) - scenes fail purely because of a desired mindset - and that is far different to fantasy

Brosco

In the present circumstances it is better that I don't refute you as I will be misinterpreted.

[Aesop]

There is an element of the difference between fantasy and desire which I think is crucial to the whole debate. How real is real and how real is fantasy. The two obvioiusly merge at a point and it as which point that is the debate. Is it a perceived difference or an actual difference. My view is it is more to an actual difference but I accept that can be an endless debate.

Yes it can be endless, but since I don't see my activities as a lesser version of my fantasies the debate ends here for me. At this point we would just be going 'round on semantics I think.

[Brosco]

In the present circumstances it is better that I don't refute you as I will be misinterpreted.

OMG ... really??? ppl here have misinterpreted you while you read and understood clearly all that others said and asked? That must be terrible for you. I know I hate when people twist and distort what I say.. I hate when my questions are ignored... so I understand exactly what you mean.

I do take offence though, for you to accuse me of misinterpreting before I even see what you have to say. Again, you state opinion as fact,,, and that has been the whole problem here with you.

Brosco

[bunkerchief]

OMG ... really??? ppl here have misinterpreted you while you read and understood clearly all that others said and asked? That must be terrible for you. I know I hate when people twist and distort what I say.. I hate when my questions are ignored... so I understand exactly what you mean.

I do take offence though, for you to accuse me of misinterpreting before I even see what you have to say. Again, you state opinion as fact,,, and that has been the whole problem here with you.

Brosco

I am not answering because if you noticed Aesop warned me about insults and since you are openly baiting me to insult you, I am not going to rise to your provocation.

Take that as you will.

[Brosco]

How can I bait you to insult me??? sheeezzz am I a masochist?

Look... this is a great forum and it doesn't need conflicts to bring it down. You have my email addie if you feel the need to attack... but this forum is to share info that we have gathered during our life's adventures. My experiences are very real to me. They mean nothing to others, but they aren't false. No one can ever take away or minimise some wonderful moments in my life.

If your experiences were "false' in your mindset, I am sorry... because mine are very real and lasting

Brosco

[bunkerchief]

If your experiences were "false' in your mindset, I am sorry... because mine are very real and lasting

Brosco

You obviously missed the whole point I was making because you are so intent on taking things personal instead of considering the point on an intellectual level.

Enough said.

[Brosco]

I thought you disagreed with people over intellectualisng things!!!

Now please get it right