Very worried that current bdsm is caused by past abuse

[alura]

Since i've been intensely discussing this with someone on the board for about an hour and a half now, I'd have to give you hazzzahs on this observation!
Makes perfect sense. We're walking, talking, breaathing radars.

I just wanted to add a thought here.

IT seems to me that it would make more sense that if a person is born with a presdispostion to being submissive, that would make them more valunerable to abuse. Aren't abusive people amazingly empathic when it serves their purpose of manipulating others? ISn't that why society refers to molestors as "sexual predators"? They just know a child that wants to please authority figures, and they know what buttons to push to make that child do what they want. Even in physical abuse or verbal, the same scenario is playing itself out. The abuser has to find a person who is valunerable enough to take the abuse. In childhood, it is a lot easier, because ALL children want to please authority figures and ALL children are extremely weak in comparison to adults. (I mean inregards to influence from adults.)

I think the reason why so many BDSMers struggle with this very question is because most of us became "aware" very early. I don't think (at least personally) that it is the abuse itself that messes with a person's head, it is the extent of your understanding about what is REALLY going on. ie the abuser's motivations, awareness of the manipulation, awareness of induced guilt by the abuser, etc....

The point I am desperately trying to make is the more intelligent, the more passsive, the more aware a child is the more susceptible that child becomes to abuse. In my dealings with other like minded people, I have found that the above criteria is very common among the BDSM community.

The reason I believe people are drawn to BDSM is because it fulfills sexual arousal on many many different levels. The more aware of yourself you are, the more levels a sexual partner has to "touch" to truely satisfy.

[Velvet Starblue]

I understand where you're coming from. I too was abused as a kid, by my dad. It can all get very confusing sometimes. I'm adding a summary of what happened to me later in life that changed me; I posted this in my blog a while back. Although I do give details here, most of it is my amateur attempt at psychological analysis. I don't want to upset anyone who has been abused... my experience is VERY unusual. If someone feels this is in the wrong section of the board then I apologise, so let me know and if necessary I'll move the post. I'm new here still so am not sure as to whart goes here and what doesn't.

Songs of Experience (not so much Innocence)
I'm sure poor William Blake would be spinning in his grave if he knew that someone on this site was misquoting his titles as I just did... although Lord Byron probably would approve.

Here's something from a female perspective, speaking from personal experience... now this, OBVIOUSLY, does not work for all women as we are all so different. It works for me, I know that for sure!

Rape is obviously about power, and control. On the victim's part, within fantasies and role play, it can also be about absolving responsibility and being forced to do what one secretly longs for or wants to experiment with. I would never have expected to like being violated, let along react the way I did. It's not something I've ever talked about much before, and it's an experience I'm still adjusting to, in some ways.

Going through all this has changed me. I feel that it is for the better, as I have learned so much about myself and others. Although I am, generally speaking, more guarded and careful because of what happened, it's opened various aspects of my sexuality that I never would have explored otherwise, and on the whole this has been good fun, although confusing.

I've gone on about it before in this blog, but didn't really concentrate on the psychological effects of being raped - which, is essentially what it was - but enjoying it. Now that really WAS confusing, to say the least.

The guys who got hold of me tied me up and went down on me first, forcing me to orgasm a few times... a battle which I did my best to fight, but lost. When they'd exhausted me, they had me, making me do whatever they wanted. Their justification of this was that as they'd taken the time to make me enjoy it, they could be as rough and brutal with me as they wanted to. They were. I'd always prefered gentler sex until then... so the fact that I came several more times, while being thoroughly degraded and treated like a piece of meat, really messed my head up for ages.

Afterwards, there was a vast amount of guilt and confusion on my part. As far as I'm concerned, rape is the worst thing that can happen to a woman. I've always believed that. It's one of these ridiculous myths that women secretly enjoy the REALITY, as opposed to the fantasy, of being raped. It is, generally speaking, such a horrendous experience.

With me it was very different because they made sure I was spent, so I was aroused to the extent that I couldn't stop myself enjoying it. I guess I really was very lucky in some ways, and it must be very tough for other women who have been badly hurt and traumatised to see me here, going on about how good it felt to be forced into something that I hadn't wanted. By making me come, the guys took away my dignity and threw my belief system up the creek for a fair while. Also, I never had rape fantasies before this happened to me, but have loved reliving my experiences ever since.

The most humiliating, and yet also the most liberating aspect of the experience was being forced to lose control completely, despite my pleading with them to let me go. I was made to react in such a personal and intimate way, to something brutal that I'd always despised and feared. By the end of the rape, I was begging them to stop and begging for more all at once. I still feel somewhat ashamed, that something like this excited me. The fact is, it did, and it still does.

Although it was quite hard to come to terms with what these guys did to me, I think in the longrun it really did help me open my mind a little and cope with shit from my past. I don't want to give the impression that they would have stopped - nothing would have stopped them from raping me that night. I didn't get any choice as to whether they did or not. Initially I struggled so much that they tied me up to make me submit, although I pleaded with them not to. It was a case of shutting up and dealing with it really, being their plaything for as long as they wanted. I can't say I was particularly frightened, because I knew them so well and I knew they wouldn't become violent enough to seriously damage me, so I did have some form of safety net there, but that was dependent upon trust - that in itself was a big mindfuck. It's kind of difficult to keep your trust in men who are forcing you into something you don't want to do, even if you feel damn sure they won't get carried away enough to hurt you much.

They took a lot of pleasure in manipulating how I reacted to them. I remember psychologically trying very hard not to let my body repond - I felt like I shouldn't let myself enjoy it because I didn't want it, and I kept telling them to stop... at which point they became more insistent. I was getting hotter and hotter and I felt as though, if I let them make me come, I'd lose my self-respect. Struggling to keep control of myself and ultimately losing that battle was confusing to say the least.

I had to deal with the fact that (as they correctly kept telling me at the time) regardless of what I said, I just couldn't ignore how good it felt after a while. It became far too intense a but I had no choice. IAlthough it was a shock, being forced to lose control felt better than anything I've ever experienced - I could let go of my inhibitions and not be responsible, which I think is why a lot of women enjoy rape fantasy.

They all had me several times and it was incredible. They'd taken me to the point where all I wanted was to feel them force me into submission and to lie helpless while they fucked me again and again. It was weird.

I felt dirty and very ashamed for enjoying it, but I was lucky in comparison to so many others. I wasn't beaten or hurt, so I felt I had no business being traumatised. One thing that really got to me was my reaction. I'd always enjoyed oral sex and being dominated, but nowhere near to that extent. If anyone had told me, prior to that night, that a man could force me to come I would never have believed it, particularly after what I went through as a kid. I learned to disassociate that experience from my earlier experiences because, this time, it had felt so good to be dominated.

Well, these guys opened my eyes. I'd never had rape fantasies before but after what they did to me, I've found that I have my most intense orgasms when I'm being coerced in a similar way. Lying there helpless while I was brutally taken was so intense.


I hope this hasn't upset anyone.

[2Tassel1Whip]

well thats what caused mine. you see, as a child my father would insert large objects (baseball bats, computer monitors, etc) into my supple anus, causing much pain but at the same time pleasure. he would then cockify my oral cavity three times in one second. this is, i believe, the cause for my love for bdsm

[kist]

My first real post other than an intro
I know that my past history ( some petting type sex abuse from a friends older brother when i was four) caused me to be sexualized early. I struggled for a long time as an adult with coming to terms - not because it was an awful experience but _because i liked it_. Took a therapist reminding me that our bodies are supposed to like sexual activities before i could forgive myself for liking it.
My family was also abusive. Not sexually but my dad was a raging alcoholic and my mom verbally abusive. I grew up defiant(inside) and independent ( the 'i dont need anyone' syndrome). That led to me being the strong one in my relationships. At least the perception was that i was strong - in reality i was just too afraid to let things 'just happen'. So i was actually controlling.
Jungian stuff helped ...as did Transactional Analysis (smiles..as mentioned earlier in the thread)
My D/s relationship has given me a safe place to act out . My Dom is able to love me unconditionally....although sometimes He struggles to know if what i need is a spanking or a cuddle. Problem being that i dont know how to express some feelings...and i'm sure thats left over from childhood. After all if you are trying to please everyone and always be perfect...how can you learn about your own self?
I also was not allowed to express anger as a child. Even now i'm not too good at it.
Thank the gods He's stronger than me lol.
I'm not sure this message is very coherant .... but i sure understand where the original poster is coming from...
kist

[alura]

You'd be surprised how many abused people end up here. I think it's because when you suffer from sexual abuse, especially as a child, you become somehow 'disconnected' from your sexuality.

The act of submission --- or dominating --- reconnects you again.

Before I found this lifestyle, I never fit. I just didn't.

Now I do.

To me, worrying about how you got here isn't important.

What is important is just EMBRACING it.....and learning to love yourself in the process.

You are who you are. It's as simple as that.

[cts81]

I was raped by 2 teenagers when I was 15 it was in no way anything to do with me being submissive we were not in a sexual or romantic situation they just decided to rape me. I was submissive before this happened (I was abused as a child not sexually and nothing to the extreme) and it had no effect on that although obviously it did affect other aspects of my life.

I am comfortable with my sexuality however when I first brought it up with my husband he was very uncomfortble. He knew about the rape and abuse and had great difficulty accepting what he thought as similar circumstances could give me pleasure.

[Kaori-san]

I had a strange childhood, not abusive... really the opposite...

As I was growing up my mother and father were both lovely when I was young, but then they moved me to another school, forcing me to be in an all girls school after a mixed one. I hated it, and wept every night when I was 8. Then, as I got older, about 14-16 my mother moved towards christianity and turned very strict (protestant). At first I didn't mind, but when she began to be at church all the time I stopped wanting to please her. Her strict beliefs turned me away from that faith and I began to hate having any part of it. She went through my books and such and threw away anything thing she though could be anti-christian and so I stopped reading at all, for fear she'd realize I wasn't christian, as she checked the backs of all the books I read (I didn't want her to find out I wasn't and force me to church all the time... I knew she wouldn't accept it). Then I turned to writing as an outlet, I wrote sci-fi/fantasy stuff, all innocent, just a way for me to do something, with reading gone (something I loved). She soon found out about this, and banned me from writing anything again... I started to draw and paint, and went on to do art GCSE, but my mother hated the stuff I drew, as my art was non-christian according to her. So I got no praise.. but she could not stop me from doing it at school of course.
I did well at arts, but got no support from my family, and convinced myself I was terrible at it, even after getting A grades at school. My mother and father wanted me to be a doctor, but I hated that, and wanted to be a vet, but they didn't support me at all and I had to organise everything for myself in order to get into University while all my friends parents helped them along.
My mother started to read books about "boundries" in her life, and my father and her drifted appart as she didn't sleep in the same bed as him, and argued all the time. They never got divorced, but to be 15 and to be constantly hearing your parents argue is worse for me.
I started to count down till I could leave home and be free to live a life I wanted, but when I was 16 things got really bad. My best friend was a wiccan, I didn't care at all about that... it's just another religion, however my mother found out. She banned me from seeing her again, and since my other friends were Muslim, I stopped being friends with them too.. so at school I had no friends to talk to, for fear my mother would find out if they weren't christian.
I ended up crying a lot in private, and slit my arm (I can't slit my wrists, I hate it), it made me feel bette. No one ever found out, and very few even know I ever did.
I never had a boyfriend, as my mother only let me go out with 'good christian boys form church' but I wasn't going to date them. I hated myself for many years after. My family ignoring me, and only paying attention to tell me what I was doing wrong, with no friends or a loving family.... I still hate having anything to do with christianity (I don't mind if others are though, but personally I could never step foot in a church). I lived a very oppressive life through my teenage years, with no attention, something you really seek as a child. So, I went to rock concerts and festivals and got drunk and such when I was 15-17... and was always in trouble... with my parents fighting constantly...

Sorry for rambling.. I had to get that out...

I have to say, my need to be dominated doesn't come from that, I think it's almost that with a Dom I can be cared for.... A Dom orders you what to do, and you will inevitably get attention.. this could be a link with me childhood... I'm not sure. I drifted towards being a sub when I was about 13 though...... before the christianity set in... so maybe not.. I'll never know.

I think it depends on past life and what you are like anyway, a mix of both, which all lead to who you are. Ballet (as mentioned before) could make people either a sub, because of it. Or, as said above, you might already be a sub, and thats how you lived through it. Of course, the forcing to be a sub could make you hate being one, and make you a dom... it can go either way..

[allalone46]

Karori-san. I think that this is one of the reasons for this page. And if it isn't or wasn't, well so what.

[Kaori-san]

Karori-san. I think that this is one of the reasons for this page. And if it isn't or wasn't, well so what.

Thanks

[kinkeeamee22]

back when i first started having sexual relations, i didnt understand what all the hype was about sex. sure it felt good, for like a minute. and the thrill of being caught was kinda cool, but i just didnt understand it. Even with people i cared for, and thought I loved, it was just an act. I wanted it to mean something, be more than just something to do. When me and my now husband started with some light bondage it was something i would look forward to, it was more than just sex, it was being able to trust someone so completely that you could submit to them. There was a meaning in it for me. So, i think that yea, abuse could have led you down this road, but not in a bad pyscological (spelling is so wrong eh?) way. Think its just your way of letting someone you love know that you can trust them that much. Abuse henders up the trust issue. You trust someone not to hurt you, so you let your significant other take control to work out your trust issues...that make sense? because someone broke ur trust once with abuse, you put yourself forward testing trust with your bdsm life kind of.
im just rambling now...lol
thats just my 2 cents.

[Sweep]

I'm a Dom and I've always been that way.

I recall being in primary school and fantasizing how delightful it would be to see a girl in my class caned on the bare bum.

My childhood was normal and not subject to any excesses. I remember getting into serious trouble on one occasion when I described my fantasy to another student who told everyone. After that I've learnt to keep my feelings to myself.

I'm sure that the nature and nurture debate rages in this area of psychology as much as everywhere else - but there are certainly some who are born wired up with this sexual preference.

[Movito]

Began with a fetish for masks and black clothes when I was thirteen. Went over to dreams of bondage with 20, and found BDSM with 28.

I find a lot of possible reasons in my childhood (family was good, but all the rest...). Today only one thing is important: it is part of myself, nobody can change it, and I like to be as I am.

My opinion of what the reasons are: human beings have the instinct to play. Playing helps to learn, to prepare for difficult dangerous situations. SM-people play the things they fear (or have once feared) most. Together with sexuality, it becomes addictive.

Note: that is only a theory, completely grown on my own rubbish, so nobody else is responsible for it.

[miss duece]

honestly this thread has shaken my view a bit as there are many stories of members suffering from past abuse. based on my local bdsm community i've gain the perspective that the majority of people involved in bdsm came from normal stable childhood backgrounds, but eh, now i'm not so sure. i was never abused as a child, but i had my rebellious moments, which is totally normal for anyone. there's so much theories as to why people with past abuse being drawn to bdsm. but what about us folks with more calmer backgrounds? are we just drawn to it because of taste or is there something more?

[NightDaughter]

I often think if I'd not meet my first BF and been raped by him would I ever have gotten into this lifestyle? The answer I will never know, becuase it happened and here I am.

I left for a time becuase I got the courage to do so, but I came back becuase for me it was the only lifestyle sexualy speaking that I new about and was in most regards comfortable with.

I meet a person, who I though I could trust will all my heart, but that trust was broken many times (I'd found myself in yet another abusive relationship).

I will say that knowing that you have it within you to find a relationship which is abusive is a good step towards learning to take steps to keep yourself safe. Knowing your past and getting help in regards to it does help (though finding a kink friendly therapst can take time as I found out - took me 6 years before I found someone to talk to).

Stay strong and you will find that the lifestyle can heal you when you find that person who is right for you (at least that I what I believe).

Take care

[Kapital_Dee]

It is entirely possible to be healthy and balanced and still have an interest in bdsm. With and without abuse in your past.

Question: Who has never had abuse in the past? Unless you have been in a coma or had the perfect parents, perfect family, went to the perfect school. We all have had some form of abuse some less extreme than others but abuse none the less.

[chromedome11]

Question: Who has never had abuse in the past? Unless you have been in a coma or had the perfect parents, perfect family, went to the perfect school. We all have had some form of abuse some less extreme than others but abuse none the less.

I disagree. I wasn't abused as a child, and I didn't abuse my kids. While still too common, I think abuse is much less prevalent than you're stating.

[lauraarmina]

I am sure that my present interests stem from an event that I experienced when I was twelve.I am not an author so please excuse my lack of story telling skills. I was staying at my Aunts house for the summer and one day her daughter,Pam, (who was the same age as me) and I got caught trying to steal sweets from our local shop.We were taken back to my aunts and made to admit to her what we had done. After she had promised the shop-keeper that she would deal with the matter we were sent to our respective rooms. A little while later we were summoned into the lounge and made to stand before her while she berrated us for our actions. At the end of our 'telling-off' she told me that I could either be punished now with Pam or I could wait for her to tell my parents when I went home.......being more scared of my dad than my aunt I chose the former option. Quite calmly she said that she was going to spank our bare bottoms and that we were to get undressed. Although my mind was in a whirl, it was obviously the accpeted punishment in this household because, with the exception of complaining that she didn't want to do it in front of me, a complaint quickly dismissed by her mother, Pam didn't seem shocked by the order.
Although I have a vivid memory of the actual event, the emotional aspects were and still are a blur. I know that I felt embaressed standing naked in front of my cousin and aunt but my arousal at the situation was all too plain to see. Was the arousal the result of my embaressment or was I embaressed at being aroused? All I know is that watching my naked cousin being held over my aunts lap while she had her bottom spanked is the singal most exciting thing I have ever seen. Even when I caught my aunt looking at me with a smirk on her face I still had to keep watching. After Pams spanking was over and she was sent back to her room, my aunt called me toward her and pulled me over her lap. During the spanking she gave me she kept saying how she knew that I had enjoyed seeing Pam nude and what a dirty and naughty boy I was. After my spanking when she told to get up. As I did so she grabbed my penis saying "I suppose you will play with yourself now?" That was it, the moment her hand touched me I came. I could hardly breath. She said nothing......just gave my penis a squeeze and looked at her cum soaked hand. After what seemed an eternity but was probabley only a minute or so, she just smiled and told me to go to bed. The fact that I masburated that night was used by my aunt on a number of occassions as a precursor to similar punishment sessions throughout that summer. Despite my best attempts, I could never draw Pam into a discussion about her feelings on that afternoons events athough I would love to know how she felt.
The strange thing is that it was seeing her get spanked that turned me on the most and still does. Maybe my interest in punishing submissive girls and women is the thought that they will experience the same embaressant and shame that Pam and I felt.......shame at being nude; shame at being punished and shame at being aroused by it all. I would be interested to hear of others first experiences and their reactions to them. [sr@btconnect.com[e-mail]

[Prpackaged]

There are times when i ask myself the same question.
I was adopted at eight months old and brought into the states by two people I call Mom and Dad. They never told me I was adopted (it finally came out when I was 22) but I think on some level I knew, because I was never treated the way a biological daughter would be treated (I think.) My mother was abusive...the incidents I remember most are the time I was ten and I got into her makeup, and one of her round brushes got tangled in my long hair. She was furious when she came home and found me with her hairbrush in my hair, and because she couldn't get it out, she grabbed the brush and literally dragged me down the hall and down stairs into the kitchen, where she proceeded to cut off all the hair that was caught with a steak knife. Then she took the scissors away that I was trying to even all of my hair off with and made me go to school for the rest of the week with big short and long patches in my hair. It was humiliating. The nuns (I was going to a cathiloc school at the time) were laughing, and so were all my classmates.
And then there was the time I was doing dishes and she came in to check if they were clean, and when she saw scratches on the bottom of one of her pots she went ballistic and chased me around the house waving a meat cleaver and telling me she was going to make me look like the pot. It wasn't even my fault, she found out later she'd made mashed potatoes and the electric blender left the same scratches on the bottom of the second pot that had been in the bottom of the first one. My father was never home. He said he was traveling for his company, and he'd be gone for months on end. only recently, when I hired a private investigator to find him, did I find out that he's now living in Virginia with another woman, has been snce he walked out on my family ten years agao, and his oldest child is now 18. I'm 25. this means that while I was getting beaten up and stuff, he was schmoozing with another woman and having kids with her. The bad part about it is that he's still married to my Mom.
Sorry. Just rambling. I don't have any answers to offer you, except to say that I wondered abut that for a while. Am I enjoying BDSM because it reminds me of my childhood, and did my desire to be humiliated and used stem from those childhood incidents? Do I need to be in an abusive relationship (I was in one out of high school that put me in the hospital before I got out of it) for me to feel like I'm worth something to someone? Eventually, finding no answers to any of those questions, I stopped analyzing and just did what feels good. I'm happily married now to a vanilla man with 2 wonderful baby boys, and I wouldn't change anything about me, because I like who I am. And those experiences I had made me who I am.
I don't know if this helps, but I just wanted you to know I wonder about the same thing you do. You're not alone; especially in this board, there are lots of like-minded people here who understand and are sympathetic, and will help you come to terms with the issues you're fighting with. Hang in there!

I think that this is an interesting part of the thread. The original question was about the possibility of abuse being a root cause of a desire to be involved in BDSM. I would think that this is more of a control issue. From what I have read, in a loving BDSM relationship the control lays with the submissive, (think safe word). The part of this post that then stands out would be the facts of adoption. When adopted quite young there is a very strong desire to be in control. We are safest when we control. We control as a sub by allowing or disallowing our dom to act. I would want to ask those who are subs if they feel this strong urge to maintain that control. As a black market baby (bought for $300 at 2 days) I really want to be in control. I do not think that being involved in BDSM stems from abuse as much as it may stem from that need to control or be controled.

Too many random thoughts. Sorry

[death penguin]

The first girl I "hooked up" with in college had a similar complex going on, though not as extreme. She was half Iranian and half Iraqi, with very strict parents that shielded her from everything and had control over everything she did (if she told them we were dating, they would expect me to marry her). She was also breaking up with a guy who she practically worshipped during her teenage years- she met him when she was 16 and he was 27. He had cheated on her numerous times, but she still stayed with him for years- until she got to college.

No big suprise, she turns out to have some serious complexes. In the daytime, she liked being "difficult," and stressed about her work constantly. However, in bed she was extremely submissive- she wanted me to slap her and call her "daddy's little whore" during sex; I could see where she was getting the impulse from. I ended that relationship pretty quickly; I knew that she was used to being dominated in every part of her life, and it felt wrong for me to fuel her complexes.

Just my opinion- I would say that you should enjoy doing what you like, so long as you (and your partner) do it out of love, instead of you just feeling that you are fulfilling a "role" set in early childhood.

[whippedcream]

The closest I ever came to being abused as a child was by a doctor who insisted on accompanying me into the pee-in-a-cup bathroom and insisted on holding the cup and wiping me (much more than was necessary) despite my telling him that I always did that myself. It grossed me out, but I was embarrassed so I only told my parents I wanted a new doctor because he smelled bad.

However, I've been kinked ever since I can remember. One of my best friends when I was really young was kinked too. We tied up Barbies and played Countess/slave with them. We fast-forwarded Disney movies to the "good parts," like in Sleeping Beauty when the prince is chained up. My parents yelled at us when they discovered our "Wedgie Machine," which if I recall correctly was made from a jump rope, but I didn't know that our games were unusual until I discovered that my other friends all refused to play them. Soo... my own experience has led me to believe that while abuse may play a role in some people's discovery of odd sexuality, other people have just always been that way.

[imadom]

The sub I used to have (which I mentioned in my bdsm life section) has very low self esteem. She was or so she said, abused by her ex-husband. It got to where she did not seem to think she could find a job so had to prostitute herself at which point I really started to have enough. I don't know if that has anything to do with what makes a sub a sub, but I guess there's all kinds of reasons. We can't just get rid of it. As a dom, I have tried that myself because of the hurt it has caused me. I can do vanilla but not for long. It's like swiming against the tide. Be yourself.
IMADOM

[FurryFury]

Here is your answer.

You enjoy BDSM because you are hot wired that way. It's not a good thing or a bad thing it's just the way you and many others are.

Not everyone who has been abused are into BDSM.

Not everyone who have never been abused are 'nilla.

We are what we are. We would all do well to accept ourselves as unconditionally as humanly possible, the way some hope to accept a Master, IMO.

*hugs*

Good luck,

Fury

[Dr Mabeuse]

One thing I've learned is that there are as many ways of doing and experiencing BDSM as there are people doing it. My opinions, therefore, apply only to myself--my own desires and experiences.

BDSM had nothing to do with abuse to me. There can be pain involved, but it's the pain of intense emotion and desire, not the kind of pain caused by abuse and contempt. I've never had anything but the deepest respect for the subs I've been with, and they always know that. Submission means nothing to me unless the person has something worth giving up. I don;t deal with masochists.

That being said, I know there are subs who are in it for the raw pain, humiliation, and punishment, just as there are Doms who practice BDSM out of a basic hatred and rage for the opposite sex or for anyone who might dare to love them. Those are deep and dangerous waters, though, and I stay out of them.

The original question amounts to asking, "What causes someone to enjoy BDSM?" and that's a very difficult question. I had all sorts of theories at one time, but now I tend to agree with those who say it's something we're born with, hard-wired into us. It seems to be some sort of primal mating beahvior. Some of us have a need to act out these deep feelings of the male as aggressor and controller and the female as submissive and controlled, and we experience such play as intensely erotic. That seems to be true for me and the subs I know, and that's about all I can say about it.

[mali]

I've always had a kink, and not really been abused in my life by any control/parental figures... though my life was a bit odd...
I grew up in the enviroment where my mother, her sisters and my grandmother had all been brought up to find a good, rich husband and marry well. My mother and her sisters broke out of this a little and married who they wished, so it didn't really affect me too much. I went to an all-girls schools, and was only ever allowed to go to private school for girls until my final 2 years because then a mixed (still private) school was needed so I would find a boyfriend amongst the boys there.
It was all about representing our family from a young age, my little brother must have worn more black-tie suits than many would in their life by the time he was 10.
I learnt to walk in heels at 11 and still have so many ball-gowns and dresses, going to a party where you had to dress up was a monthly experience for me from being very little.
I personally loved it really, the trips to London for clothes, the parties, opera's..... then as I got older i realized how strange a life it was. It was fun, but I knew it was a life I couldn't possibly continue always, I wanted to be a vet, but everyone said I should go into fashion/graphic design..... People back-stabbed and you couldn't trust anyone, no one was very nice but my school friends who weren't a part of the life i had, i realized that it wasn't a nice life to be living..

I still dress up and go shopping, but when i moved out i change a lot and liked life better, the people were less frivolous and more normal and kinder..... hmm, i sound quite old reading that post but i'm only 22

[Lavender]

I myself was raped when i was 14 my an freind, that was 6 years ago, since then i have an thing bout being forced to have sex while outside,and insdie for that matter, my either my bf or a stranger, in a VERY sick way i think some part of my brain enjoyed it my god know why at the time i was petrifed but now im not, ether theres somthing wrong with both of us or it mybe slightly normal dont know?

[cheeseburger]

I have a slightly different opinion on a lot thats been said here, so I'll try to explain myself as best as I can.

I am a male, and I have, on occasion, dreamed of forcing a female to 'submit' to me, completely. It never got past the dreaming stage, and now when I look back on that time I can easily understand where my emotions were coming from. As an adolescent, I was always very shy. I had trouble talking with my equals, and even though I had a large group of friends and was 'popular', I still felt uneasy around people, and probably got those friends by simply doing whatever they asked. I was never physicaly abused, probably the worst i experienced was taunting - nothing in comparison.

Contrast that with my fantasies. I dreamed of being an all powerfull, evil man that would keep another and force her to do my will. I was simply trying to be what I couldn't (at the time) be in real life. Add in the fact that I was only a kid discovering sex, and you can easily see where my fantasy comes from.

Later, when i entered college and had normal relationships with friends, and partners, all of my hidden fantasies and aggression melted and I only look back on that time.

Now that you understand my background, and as you know i never experienced any abuse, i can only guess at what it must be like.

When people who were abused in their past feel a need to be abused in real life - if only in BDSM or a D/s relationship - I feel that you are simply living with the same mental frame you put yourself into, back when you were being abused.

At a youg age, people are given their core values by their parents. Usually, kids are told over and over that stealing is Bad, that hurting other people is Bad, and a long time ago, in America, people in the south were told that African-Americans weren't on the same level as other people. My point is that if someone is raised in a certain environment, you can instill both (what we now see as) 'correct' and 'incorrect' instincts in someone. Some of that process is obvious - the laws against stealing, hurting, etc. A lot of it is more subtle, and takes place without you even knowing it.

When i refer to these instincts, I'm not talking about annoying parents - in most cases people rebel against those values. I mean the really basic ideas no one questions, for example the unspoken rule that everyone must wear clothing. Probably more true some decades back, but even now people get an irrational feeling of shame when you see them naked. Are they ashamed at their body? They know, as intelligent people that everyone has essentially the same body parts, but still, they feel that sense of shame and try to cover it up.

If you accept the premise that people are instilled with these subconsious 'values' at a younger age, re-examine the life of someone abused at an early age. They were clearly subjected to vastly different stimuli, so their 'values' are clearly different. In my opinion, they picked up the notion that what was happening to them was how it shouuld be. It was right to them, when clearly it was very wrong.

Fast forward in that persons life, and you have a person that still has that subconsious feeling that they should be abused, because thats how it was for them X years back. It isn't a big leap from feeling that certain actions are 'right' to feeling that they are good, and finally pleasurable.

People have trouble letting go of these subconsious 'values'. Again, look at the very obvious slavery problem America had, back in the 50's. You had older people - raised with the 'value' that African-American's were sub-human, and they had trouble re-learning what they were taught when they were little.

So, my advice to anyone with a history of abuse, and now enjoys it; look back at your life. Were you 'taught' to tolerate the abuse? Were you 'taught' to accept that submissive position? Did it happen long enough for it to, essentially, indocrinate you with a feeling of submission?

I personally think that every person also feels a desire to be happy. On a primal level, you want to be happy now. For evolutionary reasons, the act of reproducing, or sex, makes everyone happy. This is an instinct everything has, the instinct for both you, and your species, to live on. For that reason, when you do have sex, you feel 'good'. It is the easiest way for a person to feel happy, regardless of who they are and what they are doing. Add to that a subconsious feeling (of submission) - that is more prominent when the more critical part of your brain is too busy enjoying the moment - and you have a desire to be dominated, sexually. When you look back at your first such experience, you probably want more, and it snowballs from there.

There may be nothing wrong with it. Everyone is entitled to their own way of feeling happy. I think the problem with it becomes when it turns into an obsession, when it becomes all you think about. That hedonistic tendency is displayed in people who find other means of feeling 'happy', for example, obssesive gambling.

I don't claim to know the meaning of life; I don't know 'why' people exist, but I do know that escapism, crudely, is bad. You should not become obsessed with any one thing. Trying to extend a certain pleasure by shaping your entire life around it is not a good idea.

So to answer the original question, of "is it O.K. to feel submissive, and to take pleasure from it" really can't be answered by another. I feel that as long as you understand why you feel that way, you need to decide for yourself if you are ok with it. But again, just a caution: don't become obsessed. I may enjoy gambling, or playing games, but I wouldn't want to center my life around that. To me, there are other things in life.

To summarize what I have tried to explain, if you understand how, and why you have certain feelings, you can make your own educated decision about them. To try and put aside any second thoughts is escaping; to shut them out will only make them gnaw at you. I hope that this may have helped someone understand where their feelings came from.