ethical concerns re: humilation/abuse

[tessa]

I agree with Tom. If the person gets pleasure from the activity, then who are we to determine if it is ok for them to experience it?

It is not up to any individual to determine if it's okay for another to experience their sexuality, I agree. But it is up to us to decide what effect our part in it will be. And if we truly believe our part will cause harm, immediate or long-term, I feel it is our responsibility as human beings to question the situation. Just a thought.

WyldWyl, if you feel "shitty" (your word) about what you are or are not doing, it might be a reasonable idea to give it more thought on your part. Won't hurt anyone to do that.

tessa

[nk_lion]

Oh this thread time confusion is making it so hard to read anything.

About wyldWyl's comment, (and I'm speaking with no real physical bdsm experience, so I do not claim to know everything) you might have a point.

But I think it is the duty of every dom/me to delve deeper into a sub's mind and figure out if something is harmful either physically or mentally. If the sub says he or she likes a certain activity that is say...being cut and bled until they faint, it's up to the dom/me to ensure that this practise is safe and will have no future consequences.

As for the verbal humiliation, a sub places a huge amount of trust onto his/her dom/me. It is their duty to delve deeper into the mind and figure out if there is a reason for wanting this humiliation. I saw a program about rape victims and bullied girls who thought of themselves less of a normal healthy girl and more of a piece of meat, a slut, and thought themselves as dirty. They had desires to be called whore and slut not because of some healthy fantasy, but because it was what they thought could be their highest status. And being labelled as such gave them an odd sense of reassurement that they had some sense of belonging.

Sex is about happiness, but precautions should be taken.

And I believe that WyldWyl's question was with the prior information about the sub, and with a educated guess that this practise would lead to permanent damage, is it ethical?

[John56{vg}]

I agree with Tessa. And I think if YOU feel bad about it, that is an important message to you. I want to build up and support any person that has given me the honor to play with me.

If they have problems with my respecting them or not doing something becasue I think it is dangerous to them physically or mentally. Then it will be their choice. But at least I will not be a party to TRULY self-destructive behavior.

There you have my 2 cents.

John

[WyldWyl]

So, obviously quite a few of us enjoy humiliation play in various forms. But thinking about it recently, an issue came to mind that's caused me some level of unease. I'm having a little trouble verbalising my ethical concern, but I'm going to try anyways.

Ok. Let's try this. For some people, I can understand that humiliation is a turn-on, and harmless fun. I don't really share it, but I can understand it. However, what if this humiliation fetish is linked into something deeper and more problematic in the individuals psyche? Take for an example a male who's fetish is to be humiliated and abused regarding his small penis. If that's linked to a deep-seated and pervasive feeling of inadequacy, is it ethical to indulge his kink and damn the consequences?

What are people's takes on this issue? What are the possible harms and dangers involved in it, especially if that person rejects any attempts at 'rebuilding' after a humilation episode (.e. praise or comfort. I don't know about anyone else, but I definately tend to be very extra special nice and praising to someone if I've just gone through an abuse/humiliation moment with them, otherwise I feel shitty about it.

I guess, in the most general possible terms, my question is 'is it ethical to give someone something they take pleasure in, even though in the long run it may be harmful to them?'

Comments, responses, opinions, rebuttals?

[Dragon's muse]

In flat general terms, of course not. Giving heroin to an addict would be unethical, no matter how much pleasure it gives them.

Specifically, in terms of BDSM activities -- humiliation or anything else we do -- it becomes a bit more tricky. In the long run, almost everything we do may be harmful, either physically or psychologically. On the flip side of the coin, though, it can also be amazingly cathartic. i think, it would go on a situational basis.

If the ill-endowed man in your example has sufficient baggage to render him unable to make a reasonable decision on the matter, perhaps you should think twice about indulging him. But if he is fairly well-adjusted in other ways and copes with life in a reasonable fashion, then the responsibility for his own pleasure, and whatever risks of harm comes with it, is his.

Just my tuppence, your mileage may vary.
rose

[TomOfSweden]

I guess, in the most general possible terms, my question is 'is it ethical to give someone something they take pleasure in, even though in the long run it may be harmful to them?'

So as soon as somebody enjoys something that isn't heteronormative we should look into that persons past to see where it went wrong?

It's a very arrogant assumption you make. Who are you to tell somebody what may or may not be harmful to them in the long run? If it makes them happy, then where's the harm? If sex isn't about pursuit of happiness, then what is it?

[_ID_]

Smoking has been proven to cause cancer, yet we allow it in our societies. Is it unethical to do so?

I agree with Tom. If the person gets pleasure from the activity, then who are we to determine if it is ok for them to experience it?

[WyldWyl]

Not sure why the thread has inverted like that. Very odd. But yes, NK, it was knowing something about it (and knowing that it was coming from something inside the sub that was causing them pain) that lead me to believe it was unethical. Certainly I'll be giving it deeper thought.

Oh, and Tom, I don't believe it's arrogant of me to care for the people I play with. Maybe I'm making an assumption here, but it was one (in the specific case that made me want to talk about this) that was based on solid information and understanding of how they think and feel. I do not believe that deviating from heteronormative patterns necessarily stems from anything bad. I myself am bisexual and know that there's no trauma or inbuilt problem that caused that, I'm simply seeing a link that I know to be there in a specific case. If that's arrogance, then sure, I'm arrogant.

Thanks for the replies, though, very thought provoking,

[TomOfSweden]

Not sure why the thread has inverted like that. Very odd. But yes, NK, it was knowing something about it (and knowing that it was coming from something inside the sub that was causing them pain) that lead me to believe it was unethical. Certainly I'll be giving it deeper thought.

Oh, and Tom, I don't believe it's arrogant of me to care for the people I play with. Maybe I'm making an assumption here, but it was one (in the specific case that made me want to talk about this) that was based on solid information and understanding of how they think and feel. I do not believe that deviating from heteronormative patterns necessarily stems from anything bad. I myself am bisexual and know that there's no trauma or inbuilt problem that caused that, I'm simply seeing a link that I know to be there in a specific case. If that's arrogance, then sure, I'm arrogant.

Thanks for the replies, though, very thought provoking,

The arrogance is assuming that something is wrong just because you can't understand it. Because regarding the tiny penis guy, you have put him into a context which he may or may not agree with. If he says he enjoys it, you can't make the judgement whether or not it is damaging for him.

It sounds more like you're in the "caring Master" paradox. Where love and care as we're taught in the vanilla world doesn't include hurting someone. I'm guessing this is about you have a discrepancy between what feedback you want from your slave and what you count as healthy. We all have our limits. I'd never grind anybody down a meat grinder, no matter how much she'd beg me We should all stick to our hard limits.

But that said. I would like to add that as we all know, there are people who are total lunatics. That are so complicated that nothing on the surface makes any sense. In situations like that I just walk away before engaging in anything. But still, I don't make any deeper judgements on people like it. I just....run!!!

[Rhabbi]

Here is my take on it. If the person enjoys it, and the other person also enjoys, then it should be ok.

If you are having problems personally, than talk about them. BDSM is about communication. Find out if the problem is yours or his. If it makes either of you feel bad, then stop.

[Ocean_Soul]

Tom,

I know you may have taken issue with some of the things said. But there were enough “ifs” placed in key locations to shift things from being accusing to being questioning.

I don’t think we should be afraid to question issues like this. Some might go ahead with a little information, some may prefer to get more information and opinion before going ahead. Different people also have different risk thresholds just like we have different pain thresholds and find different things to be not pleasurable enough to be worth the risk or the risk is too great for them.

Also what might be a closed and well known issue for some might not be so for others even if they don’t include a disclaimer attesting to their gros ignorance of all things at the beginning of a message.

Taking offence and crying judgmental is really, when it comes down to it, a red herring that avoids the issue in question altogether.

I haven’t read every post by WyldWyl outside this thread nor have I been here for a few days but from what I have read I would have to say that what’s been said is based more on fear and erring on the side of caution rather than judging or arrogance.

And I’ll include this here as well, I agree strongly with Tessa and would add that there is also no harm in talking about it and even entertaining the idea that something done might be harmful. As far as I’m concerned, it’s the responsible thing to do.

[TomOfSweden]

Tom,

I know you may have taken issue with some of the things said. But there were enough “ifs” placed in key locations to shift things from being accusing to being questioning.

I don’t think we should be afraid to question issues like this. Some might go ahead with a little information, some may prefer to get more information and opinion before going ahead. Different people also have different risk thresholds just like we have different pain thresholds and find different things to be not pleasurable enough to be worth the risk or the risk is too great for them.

Also what might be a closed and well known issue for some might not be so for others even if they don’t include a disclaimer attesting to their gros ignorance of all things at the beginning of a message.

Taking offence and crying judgmental is really, when it comes down to it, a red herring that avoids the issue in question altogether.

I haven’t read every post by WyldWyl outside this thread nor have I been here for a few days but from what I have read I would have to say that what’s been said is based more on fear and erring on the side of caution rather than judging or arrogance.

And I’ll include this here as well, I agree strongly with Tessa and would add that there is also no harm in talking about it and even entertaining the idea that something done might be harmful. As far as I’m concerned, it’s the responsible thing to do.

If your point is that I was a bit harsh in my formulation, then point taken. Apart from that I don't get it. yes, off-course it's great getting all issues up to the surface so we can here every side.

[Ocean_Soul]

Tom, it wasn't that I thought it was harsh, it just simply missed the mark IMHO.

[fantassy]

'is it ethical to give someone something they take pleasure in, even though in the long run it may be harmful to them?'

If you are the Dom, you are responsible for the health and safety of the sub - that includes psychological health. Therefore, no if you truly believe something you are doing is causing long term harm to the sub, it is not ethical to continue doing it to them, even if it gives them pleasure.

That being said, not all humiliation play has long term harmful effects. One sub I know, feels he needs the humiliation play in order to humble him occasionally, so that he is a nicer person in his vanilla life - otherwise, he tends to get too egotistical and arrogant. For him the humiliation play, creates balance. Thus the Dom/me's job is to determine what effect the play is having of his/her individual sub.

However, you shouldn't do something that makes you feel bad about yourself, either. Even if the sub gains pleasure and no harmful effect from the humiliation play, if it leaves the Dom feeling bad about himself, the DOM may experience a long term harmful psychological effect from it. Don't forget to take care of yourself too!

fantassy

[Eponine]

Okay-
I had to comment here because my biggest turn-on is major humiliation.

WyldWyl, my first thought as I read your question was why is humiliating someone so worrisome to you vs. giving her pain? I have found this feeling from others though, as well (not necessarily here)- and that is why until recently I have been inhibited about sharing my humiliation fantasies and desires.

BUT, really, breaking it down- everything in BDSM can be looked at questionably under the "ethical" lens- what is "wrong" with someone who takes pleasure in being whipped? having their genitals tortured? will indulging those kinks harm them by feeding some deep-seated psychological defect?

I am curious as to why you separate humiliation, in this respect, from any other BDSM areas.

I have had the inner conflicts to some extent about the possibility that my needs reflect some turmoil in my psyche. However, I realized that my needs are not going away, and more than that, in each D/s relationship I have had, I have felt a thousand times better and healthier about myself and life.

Which brings me to my last point- WyldWyld, as many here have pointed out, as a master, you must be communicative and perceptive enough to know the mental and emotional health of your sub/ slave. When you reach that state of insight, you will know if you are being helpful or harmful. If you are just talking about "scening", "topping" someone, well, either you feel comfortable doing what you're doing or you don't- so just do it or don't do it, but don't dwell on these thoughts. That's just casual sex and if you feel guilty about it, you may as well not do it b/c you're not enjoying it anyway.

If you are speaking of a full relationship, you will see the sub/ slave blossom and overcome any emotional issues she may have. Oh, and I agree with you heartily about tenderness and comfort afterwards- and in fact all the time. With my last master, no matter how he may have tortured me at times, I always knew he loved me- he was always affectionate and tender and loving (outside of slapping the shit out of me or spitting on me lol )

I know I have not been as articulate and clear as possible here- I apologize, but anyway, good luck Wyl- feel free to pm me if you'd like

[Sir_Russell]

I feel that the health and well being of my sub/slave is my responsibility. morgan loves having chains inside her but the ones we have are making her sick so even though she love them I have refused to use them in her till I can find stainless steel ones or ones that won't cause this effect. She isn't happy about it.