Why the 24 hour bdsm?

[duktig flicka]

First of all, I want to apologize in advance to anyone who this offends. Though my response to the 24 hour bdsm is negative, I really am trying to understand it and see the alternative point of view.

It has only recently come to my attention that for some people, bdsm is not just something that is limited to the bedroom, so to speak. As I would absolutely not tolerate anything less than equal treatment from my boyfriend in anything outside of sex, I'm utterly confused and somewhat emotionally distressed by this idea.

After seeing this page, I was very taken aback by a particular quote:

I like to have them write down 10 punishments and 10 rewards. After they have written them down, I sit down and go over the rewards and the punishments with them. Here is where a submissive will try to be somewhat sneaky, if they have a spanking fetish and have spanking down as a punishment then that needs to go to the "rewards jar" and not the "punishment jar."

If she doesn't like it, why would you do it? How would a person consent to bdsm if they don't enjoy it? I can't understand for a moment why someone would consent to a sexual practice they don't actually enjoy. The article even goes on to say that a dom absolutely must not include sex or anything sexual during punishment. Huh? I thought sexuality was the whole point! What place does bdsm have outside of sex? I also read another thread earlier, which spoke of the same thing - how to punish a sub with things they truly don't like.

Is bdsm really "real" for some people, rather than play and role-playing for the sake of a sexual fetish? Is one person truly considered lesser than the other? If that's the case, how can one separate bdsm from abuse?

Note that I do understand being pushed a little into things I don't really enjoy because that in itself is a turn-on. Sometimes my boyfriend makes me do things I don't like during play, since it turns us both on that he's making me do something I don't want to do. But I'm referring to these punishments I see people writing about which are meant to be truly unpleasant or downright cruel for the submissive, so as to actually condition them not to do something again.

Could somebody please help me to try and understand this?

EDIT: Just to add, another reason this is putting a strain on me is that many people have put forth that bdsm is anti-feminist. I usually argue with them that bdsm is simply a sexual fetish that has no reason to negatively affect an otherwise egalitarian relationship. My argument seems to fall flat on its face now and my level of comfort with bdsm is flitting away as I start to get nervous that I'm part of something oppressive.

[BDSM_Tourguide]

If she doesn't like it, why would you do it? How would a person consent to bdsm if they don't enjoy it?

Because it's punishment. Punishment is not supposed to be enjoyable. Otherwise, what's the point of it? You don't give your dog a treat for pooping on the floor, do you? Why would you give your submissive a treat for acting outside of the pre-determined boudaries?

I can't understand for a moment why someone would consent to a sexual practice they don't actually enjoy. The article even goes on to say that a dom absolutely must not include sex or anything sexual during punishment. Huh? I thought sexuality was the whole point! What place does bdsm have outside of sex? I also read another thread earlier, which spoke of the same thing - how to punish a sub with things they truly don't like.

Because there's WAY, WAY more to the BDSM lifestyle than just sex. in fact, in the literal definition of the word, submission has nothing to do with sexuality. Submission simply indicates a willingness or need to serve.

If a person likes kinky sex, then they like kinky sex. If a person is a submissive, then they enjoy submitting.

Is bdsm really "real" for some people, rather than play and role-playing for the sake of a sexual fetish? Is one person truly considered lesser than the other? If that's the case, how can one separate bdsm from abuse?

Well, yeah! have you not noticed the number of posts here about people in BDSM relationships? Do you think they only "play BDSM" when they're in the bedroom? No! this is real life for some people here, and some people take it quite seriously. Why else do you think I, for example, would spend so much time writing all those informative and educational articles about different aspects of BDSM if it was just a bedroom game people played?

And no, one person is not necessarily considered lesser to another. If they were, then someone's missing the whole point. BDSM is a nurturing relationship, designed to build a person up, not tear them down as occurs through abuse.

For more information about the differences between BDSM and abuse, read here.

Could somebody please help me to try and understand this?

Some of us, myself in particular, have been trying to help people to understand this for quite a long time now. Have a look through some of the older posts here and read some of my articles.

(If I talk about myself any more in this post, I'm gonna puke.)

EDIT: Note that I do understand being pushed a little into things I don't really enjoy because that in itself is a turn-on. Sometimes my boyfriend makes me do things I don't like during play, since it turns us both on that he's making me do something I don't want to do. But I'm referring to these punishments I see people writing about which are meant to be truly unpleasant or downright cruel for the submissive, so as to actually condition them not to do something again.

I would disagree with any punishment that the submissive deemed to be "cruel." However, the submissive partner themself sets their own limits. If they consent to being punished for disobedience, for example, then they know full well that something unpleasant is going to happen to them if they are disobedient. It's incentive for them to act well.

And don't focus too much on the negative reinforcement aspects. There are plenty of rewards for good submissives, too.

[Finding_Fantasy]

I thought sexuality was the whole point! What place does bdsm have outside of sex?

You and I are on total opposite ends of the spetrum. I prefer to be dominated outside of the bedroom. BDSM has nothing at all to do with sex. Granted, yes we do have sexual play but that is more fo Tourguide than myself. I am into more mental submission. Being told what to do, how to hold myself, how to act etc. Sex is just something that is added in, but not for my benefit.

Everyone has the things what they can do and want to do. What may not be good for you and completely inconceivable to you, may be someone else's idea of what is right. The only time that it is right, however, is if the submissive agrees to the terms. There can be an agreed upon set of rules and guidelines laid out by the domiant and accepted or rejected by the submissve. A lot of people call this a contract rather than rules. This contract is to be followed by both parties. And, since the submissive agreed to these terms and probably negotiated them, she is bound by that contract and if she breaks the conditions of that contract then she must deal with the consequences of breaking it by accepted the agreed upon punishments.

There is a saying in BDSM: Safe, Sane, and Consensual. This means that nothing is done without agreeing to it first (hence the consensual) Safe and Sane means that there should be no damage done either physically or mentally. If there is damage done and it is done without consent then it is abuse. Tourguide actually wrote an article on it sometime ago. Here it is. Fell free to read it.

Someone said once that BDSM is like a buffet. You pick and choose the elements you like and want and leave the rest for others. You choose the sexual, in the bedroom only elements of BDSM while someone like me prefers the mental control.

Through out punishments and activities that the submissive does receive and endure, he or she always has the right to stop it through a safe word. Despite what some people may say, a submissive, in the end, has the right to say no if the activity is intolerable.

I hope that helps and that this just doesn't sound like a lot of BS and rambling. LOL

And in the words of CSI

Gil Grissom "The submissive is the one with all the control"

Lady Heather "You've been paying attention."

[Eraser]

A very intelligently asked and posed question and a issue of some debate between what is sometimes refereed to as the player/soft community and the rest of the scene.

For a generic answer yes some defiantly look down in contempt of non 24/7 people. This would be similar to for example, many vegan's hold contempt for vegetarians. and "hardcore" musical subculture holds contempt for the "posers" of send sub culture (Goth's hate baby bats, gangster rappers hate the pop rappers, punks hate bubble gum punks etc). To other though they simply don't care hey if your not 24/7 no biggie have fun at what you do. Now on to specific, I know BDSM_tour guide is adding his own comments as well so this should be rather complete in its answers

Some specifics:

-snipe-
If she doesn't like it, why would you do it? How would a person consent to bdsm if they don't enjoy it?

They DO enjoy it, but what they enjoy is beyond the specifics of a single or particular group of activities the joy and the passion for them is the relenting of control on a larger scale. Therefore, when rules are both established and broken punishment is due, and punishment is just that, its not meant to be enjoyed. Why would they consent to that? because its exactly what the want.

Is bdsm really "real" for some people, rather than play and role-playing for the sake of a sexual fetish? .

oh VERY!

Is one person truly considered lesser than the other? If that's the case, how can one separate bdsm from abuse?

The PERSON is not lesser (at least this is my view) look at the differance between 2 people in the military one is of a lesser rank not lesser of a person.

There are particular sects of BDSM (Gorean) where yes strictly on the basis of there gender are a lesser person. For some this is a constant erotic thrill and personally satisfying to be view by a particular person or group of persons in such a way.

Note that I do understand being pushed a little into things I don't really enjoy because that in itself is a turn-on. Sometimes my boyfriend makes me do things I don't like during play, since it turns us both on that he's making me do something I don't want to do.

This is what submission is about you do it cause it turns him on. There are others that strive to live in that state, not the state of just being a turn on for someone else. But knowing that there actions and group of actions are really pleasing to someone and making them very happy. Giving that to someone else makes them in-turn feel more complete and whole as a person. Psychologically speaking this is referred to as "an external locus of control" where as the person bases her self assessment (am I good or bad?) on factors outside herself.

But I'm referring to these punishments I see people writing about which are meant to be truly unpleasant or downright cruel for the submissive, so as to actually condition them not to do something again.

That is exactly what they are doing, and that is exactly what a full time 24/7 submissive wants. They want to be the best and exactly what their owner wants them to be. They fully understand that punishment will be unpleasant at times and its meant as behavior modifier.

Could somebody please help me to try and understand this?
.

I'm sure there are plenty of people here MORE then willing and happy to explain and talk with you. You are also welcome to message me on Yahoo my ID is listed.

EDIT: Just to add, another reason this is putting a strain on me is that many people have put forth that bdsm is anti-feminist. I start to get nervous that I'm part of something oppressive.

There are MANY stout feminist especially in the leatherdyke community. What is oppressive about this? Isn't at least to my understanding a BIG part of the movement that women are equal to men both in ability and in rights? They are free to do what they choose? Why is it that a woman cannot CHOOSE to live this way. No one is ever FORCED to be a submissive. Every submissive woman (or man) I have ever met wasn't kidnapped and dragged into the lifestyle kicking and screaming. They ran to it with open arms. Isn't it more anti-feminist to say that a woman CAN'T do this if she wants?

[e.b.]

df, I don't think it's offensive at all for you to want to better your understanding by asking polite questions. Much of what I wanted to say while reading your post has already been mentioned in the above responses, but just to throw in a couple more ideas...

It has only recently come to my attention that for some people, bdsm is not just something that is limited to the bedroom, so to speak. As I would absolutely not tolerate anything less than equal treatment from my boyfriend in anything outside of sex, I'm utterly confused and somewhat emotionally distressed by this idea.

Even with a 24/7 D/s relationship, both partners acknowledge that they are equals. The dom wouldn't have anything to dominate without the sub's gift of submission. Good D/s couples may just have a tacit understanding of their ultimate equality as people so it doesn't have to be continually addressed. That way each partner is free to fulfill his or her desired role. And, yes, it's about way, way more than sex. It's about service. To me, the sex is just an added benefit when my dom chooses to reward me that way.

I like to have them write down 10 punishments and 10 rewards. After they have written them down, I sit down and go over the rewards and the punishments with them. Here is where a submissive will try to be somewhat sneaky, if they have a spanking fetish and have spanking down as a punishment then that needs to go to the "rewards jar" and not the "punishment jar."

This task is great to find out how honest your submissive is. It's also a good way to let the sub communicate how she feels about different parts of the relationship. For example, a spanking or caning is a reward for me. Having to bend over a piece of furniture and hold position during a harsh paddling, however, would be a punishment. I know many subs that really don't mind a paddle compared to some other instruments but for me it's awful. It's enough to be painful without giving me the endorphin rush a harsher implement such as a cane provides. A non-sexual example would be knowing which would be worse for your sub, having to write an essay or having to write the same sentence over and over again. Some might prefer just to write the sentences. I'd be bored out of my mind. It would make me think about my actions and want to behave better in the future. That's the whole point. The relationship is symbiotic: the sub gives her trust to the dom while the dom provides a certain amount of guidance in return.

If she doesn't like it, why would you do it? How would a person consent to bdsm if they don't enjoy it? I can't understand for a moment why someone would consent to a sexual practice they don't actually enjoy. I also read another thread earlier, which spoke of the same thing - how to punish a sub with things they truly don't like.

That's the whole point of punishment though. My primary goal as a sub is to please my master; it's not to have orgasms from kinky sex. If I am not pleasing, I wish to be corrected so that I may do a better job. I may not enjoy the correction but I do enjoy the greater sense of satisfaction I get the next time a similar situation occurs and I please my master by behaving more appropriately. Also, punishment provides a way for a sub to "repent", purge any feelings of guilt for misbehaving, and then be forgiven and move on. I think that's nicer than holding grudges...it's certainly more emotionally tidy.

Is bdsm really "real" for some people, rather than play and role-playing for the sake of a sexual fetish? Is one person truly considered lesser than the other? If that's the case, how can one separate bdsm from abuse?

FF really summed up the difference between bdsm and abuse with her mention of consent. That's the determining factor. Both parties are equal but if they decided as equals that there were certain responsibilities that the sub accepts and then also decided as equals on the actions the dom could take if displeased with the sub's handling of such responsibilities, then that all becomes fair game. Besides, if a sub really doesn't want to be punished because it's unpleasant then that seems to be a pretty good motivator for ensuring proper behavior.

But I'm referring to these punishments I see people writing about which are meant to be truly unpleasant or downright cruel for the submissive, so as to actually condition them not to do something again.

Exactly...and I crave that as a submissive. I like being held accountable if I don't meet the expected standards. While punishment may be quite harsh, I'm reluctant to call it cruel. After all, good doms care about their sub's well-being. Even the act of punishing is done out of concern. It's not something either D or s generally takes lightly.

Just to add, another reason this is putting a strain on me is that many people have put forth that bdsm is anti-feminist. I usually argue with them that bdsm is simply a sexual fetish that has no reason to negatively affect an otherwise egalitarian relationship. My argument seems to fall flat on its face now and my level of comfort with bdsm is flitting away as I start to get nervous that I'm part of something oppressive.

BDSM is not anti-feminist because women have the right to be respected for having free will. That includes being allowed to choose to relinquish that will under certain pre-negotiated circumstances. The negotiation should ensure that the relationship is still egalitarian. D/s is not oppressive...the "vanilla" husband down the street that beats his wife in a drunken rage is oppressive, abusive, and anti-feminist. Again, because there's lack of consent and the actions are not for the benefit of both parties.

Just my rambling, long-winded two cents...

eb

[Curtis]

Another reason it isn't anti-feminist is that there are more female Dommes than male Doms, and more male than female subs, at least in the United States.

[duktig flicka]

Thank you so much, all of you, for trying to help me understand. But I still don't get it. Maybe I'm just being ditzy, maybe I'm a wimp, maybe it's because I've been plagued by a problem with authority since I was a toddler or maybe I just don't belong here after all.

I don't know what that's supposed to make me then, if I'm apparently not "real" bdsm. I'm very surprised to find I'm in such a minority. I'm on a bdsm personals site because I've been ordered to find another woman to enter into play, but an error on the site meant I couldn't enter in my profile. Many took the empty profile to mean that I was a single submissive woman. I was really quite shocked to find that the doms who contacted me didn't seem to have any problem finding out that I'm hooked and not looking for a man, but absolutely could not take that my career is my first priority. I guess I'm some kind of independent/submissive hybrid freak!

BDSM_Tourguide, Your ava scares me. I had kind of assumed that submissives weren't truly considered equal to dogs, not to mention that they (hopefully) know better than to poop on the floor. Am I the only one who thinks that being naughty and getting a punishment is a turn-on? Is my dom so rare for enjoying it also?

You say that it's about consent. I've already got that bit, but the problem is that I cannot for the life of me understand why someone would consent to something they didn't enjoy. Yes, of course I've noticed other people's posts about their bdsm relationships. Many of them made me very hot. I thought that was the point. I don't, however, think it's "only a bedroom game people play." It's still something very special and fulfilling to me. Do I have to throw away everything that makes my life worth living and kill my own personality before it "counts" as something special?

Finding_Fantasy, I love your ava! I am glad to see you place limits on it. I was quite frightened by a post I read in another community where a sub talked of how she was in an abusive relationship but she couldn't leave because "master won't release me." It really made me shudder. That you say a safe word is chosen is reassuring. I still can't manage to understand why you'd consent to this, but maybe I never will.

Eraser, I have the exact same problem trying to understand why anyone would consent to be in the military! But at least they have the chance to move up to higher rankings. I'd like to make it clear that my boyfriend and I do not do what we do because it turns him on, but because it turns us on. If I really didn't want to do it, I wouldn't, and he'd be very upset if he found that I had done something I didn't want to just for him. He'll push me sometimes into doing something I don't like, but that's because it turns us both on that he does so. If he was trying to make me do things I really didn't want to, I'm quite certain I would kick him out.

Sorry to get off-topic, but I don't think that could be said to be an external locus of control. If the sub decided to enter into the relationship themself and punishments/rewards are a result of their own actions, then that's an internal locus of control, don't you think?

I don't think consent or "choice" themselves are anywhere near enough to relieve it of feminist concern. In the 50's, women weren't kidnapped and dragged into cooking and cleaning for 70 hours a week, either. I think the way to understand if it's anti-feminist or not is to examine why people choose it. Though I'm not sure anyone could do that without being disrespectful and violating privacy. Which just makes the whole thing that much more complicated!

e.b., thank you for your reassurance. I think starting this thread has made me more confused than I was before. I still don't see how a person would consent to letting another dominate their whole life, or to activities they wouldn't enjoy. Excuse me while I go sulk in a corner until I get it.

[MrVortex]

I am not sure what the problem is.. I think a D/s relationship is unique for everyone. It's perfectly acceptible for you to have a professional career and it be off limits to your Dom/me..

There are alot of registered users on this site and I do see extremes that I most likely wouldn't put a sub through or even take on a sub that would want those extremes but the point is , the D/s relationship is a mutual decision and if you find yourself in a position that isn't what you expected then there was a miscommunication that needs to be rectified,. There shouldn't be any problem re-evaluating it.

You will find here some extremes because people have extremes tastes and desires.

I don't fit in perfectly at this site but I like it because I do have tendencies other than vanilla . So I feel at home here and find it will be a great place to explore my unique lifestyle

[new master]

I don't know what that's supposed to make me then, if I'm apparently not "real" bdsm. I'm very surprised to find I'm in such a minority. ..... I guess I'm some kind of independent/submissive hybrid freak!

duktig flicka, please font think anyone here is stating that your relationship is not "real" bdsm, only that we have a different bdsm relationship yours is alot closer to ours than you believe as ypur nex quote proves

Am I the only one who thinks that being naughty and getting a punishment is a turn-on? Is my dom so rare for enjoying it also?.....Do I have to throw away everything that makes my life worth living and kill my own personality before it "counts" as something special?

this is why many subs enter the 24/7 relationship the giving up control IS the turn on and most subs DO enjoy the punishment aspect. as i have said in other posts i dont believe a true dom would ever ask/demand a sub to throw away/kill thier own personality as that would defeat the whole purpose of domination

I was quite frightened by a post I read in another community where a sub talked of how she was in an abusive relationship but she couldn't leave because "master won't release me." It really made me shudder.

that in my opinion IS abuse as with any contract there is always a way to release yourself that sub just needs to realize hers is a phone with 3 little #s "911"

I'd like to make it clear that my boyfriend and I do not do what we do because it turns him on, but because it turns us on. If I really didn't want to do it, I wouldn't, and he'd be very upset if he found that I had done something I didn't want to just for him. He'll push me sometimes into doing something I don't like, but that's because it turns us both on that he does so. If he was trying to make me do things I really didn't want to, I'm quite certain I would kick him out.

now you get the whole 24/7 idea. its not just to turn the dom on its to turn both on so no more sulking ok?

[Eraser]

Thank you so much, all of you, for trying to help me understand. But I still don't get it....maybe I just don't belong here after all.

Belong where? in the forum? bah I hardly think that is the case. You enjoy BDSM the fact of being 24/7 or not has no bareing on being here.

I don't know what that's supposed to make me then, if I'm apparently not "real" bdsm.

No you are just not into TPE or the 24/7 part.
http://www.mistresspatricia.net/Info...submission.htm

you don't have to be on the bottom 3 to be into BDSM, you can be the first and still be into it.

I'm not gonna comment on the other people.

Eraser I'd like to make it clear that my boyfriend and I do not do what we do because it turns him on, but because it turns us on. ...If I really didn't want to do it, I wouldn't, and he'd be very upset if he found that I had done something I didn't want to just for him.... If he was trying to make me do things I really didn't want to, I'm quite certain I would kick him out. [/QUOTE]

It turns both me and my sub on. Your talking about not getting things, your next comment I don't get. Why if you did something he didn't like just for him he would be upset? I HATE ballet (I think alot of men do) but I've taken my girl to the ballet a number of times. Should she be upset with? Isn't this part of the give and take of any relationship? Isn't this part of loving? I've taken her and endured hours of being bored off my ass and miserable just so she could see a bunch of people jump around in tights. Taken up my entire day more then once. I've missed other events and things I wanted to do just so she could go to the ballet or the opera. Hell I've planned entire vacations around it. Taken my entire time to do something I DEFFINATLY did not want to because she did.

Sorry to get off-topic, but I don't think that could be said to be an external locus of control. If the sub decided to enter into the relationship themself and punishments/rewards are a result of their own actions, then that's an internal locus of control, don't you think?

the locus of control is reffering to there feeling and no its not a part of every submissive. What I am refferring is fairly common place in and out of BDSM where a person or partner derives a sigificant portion of there personal idenity by there actions percieved by another and feel the other persons mood demeanor and state of mind is a direct reflection of there own actions. How many mothers have you heard say that there child did or did not do because they were a good or were not a good mother? It is realitivly the same thing its a developmental growth stage that everyone goes through the degree that is retained into adulthood varies of course or can be placed specificly to a person not a whole. You do NOT have to have such a disposition to be submissive.

I don't think consent or "choice" themselves are anywhere near enough to relieve it of feminist concern. In the 50's, women weren't kidnapped and dragged into cooking and cleaning for 70 hours a week, either.

No they weren't but they were socially expected to that way by a prodominatly Male led society. So now we have come 180 so to speak, now we have women that are socielly expect NOT to act a paticular way by the motivations of the up and coming female minds of our society and the ones that DO want that way of life that the feminist society tells them they should want are anti-feminist? Why? becase they don't cling to the feminist ideals? its no different to operess someone or make them act a paticular way because of sociological view. In the 50's society said act this way and women did. Now your telling them there free to do what they want to be equals and they are choicing there way of life and your trying to opress them out of it and tell them its wrong. Why? This what they want to do and your trying to force them to think and act the way the "movement" wants them to. How is this any different then the 50's?

I think the way to understand if it's anti-feminist or not is to examine why people choose it.

Well there deffinatly not socially pushed into it, BDSM is frowned on by society as a whole and is at least a misdomeanor in some states. So you can't say there being sociologically opressed into it. They do it out of there own desire to be there for there own reasons. Which would be more of a case by case decision and has its own individual psychological roots.

Your saying you don't understand why someone would want to be treated that way. Just because you don't understand it or its not what you want doesn't make it wrong. I don't understand why some people are bi or gay. I don't why some people belong to certain religions. That doesn't make it wrong. Just ask the fact you don't choose to live BDSM inn a TPE 24/7 doesn't make you not into BDSM or not real.

[Curtis]

There will always be people who insist on defining terms to be exclusionary, instead of inclusionary. Don't get hung up on the terminology. Remember that there are different strokes for different folks. If you and your husband enjoy it, then do it, and don't worry about what it's called.

Using the same philosophy (DSFDF), don't worry about the people who are 'lifestyle' (24/7). That's their thing, not yours. I don't understand why people eat vegetables. Just the smell of cooking vegetables can make me vomit, and to actually put them in your mouth! Disgusting! But, I accept that other people do this disgusting thing, and realize that whether or not they do it, it doesn't have to affect me. Just think of 24/7 as being a disgusting vegetable. You don't have to understand it, since you have the option to ignore it.

[Finding_Fantasy]

Despite having a master and being collared etc etc. Every submissive is free to get up and leave at absolutely anytime if it becomes truly abusive ie: nonconsesual activities. It is not different than a marriage really when the wife is being beaten by her husband. She is free to leave. Actually it would be easier for a submissive to leave than a wife... a lot less legal issues.

[Nightstriker]

*Reads the post and contemplates for a moment.*

Another wonderful discussion. There is so much here to contemplate and think about. I applaude all of the people who posted here. Everyone has brought so much information here at times it is difficult to take in but, none the less just amazing to read and learn from.

[duktig flicka]

Wow, so much to reply to. Sorry if I miss things, but I'll try to respond to what I can.

MrVortex, thank you! That's very good to hear.

new master, but part of what I was referring to was how the site I quoted and some members here have insisted that the sub absolutely must not enjoy any punishment and it even has a big speech with lots of exclamation points on how sex should never be involved with the punishment. Sex is always involved with my punishments, that's more or less their point. If I got a spanking as a reward, it would lose 100% of its erotic value. It would just seem bizarre and silly and would turn me off immediately. My boyfriend feels the same. I'm a little turned off that some people are jumping up and down to tell me how wrong that is.

As for the abuse, yes, I would agree that it would fall into that category. But I've had many people assert to me that consent is what separates bdsm from abuse. If she chose to obey when her master told her she couldn't leave the relationship, does that stop it from being abuse? Personally, I don't think so. Many people have consensually entered abusive relationships and plenty even abuse themselves out of desperation, depression, self-loathing, fear and a great big huge list of other reasons.

And no, I still don't get the 24/7 so forgive me if I continue to sulk. While I love to get turned on, I don't think anyone wants to be turned on 24/7 and a few have noted that it's not about getting turned on in the first place. You'll find me back in the corner if you need me.

Eraser, yikes, there's a lot to address there. Okay, first of all, the whole ballet thing. When you say you hate it, I think that means you're mostly bored with it. I would be very surprised if it causes you any distress, humiliation, self-doubt, attack to your personality or sacrifice of something meaningful in your life. Most importantly, it's reciprocol. I'm sure she does equal things for you. So, I don't think that comes anywhere near to a fair analogy.

And onwards to the issue with why people choose to be submissive. You seem to imply that the only way a human mind can possibly be made to act against its nature is if society blatantly says they have to act in precisely one way. If brains were that simple, I'm pretty sure I'd have had my master's degree years ago. Unfortunately, there are hundreds of other psychological issues that could make a person enter into unhealthy situations. Moreover, you seem to be ignoring how women definitely are socially conditioned and socially expected to be submissive. I spend all the damn day in class reading about studies that show how little girls' brains are developing in unhealthy ways because of the different ways they are treated. I had to write a 60 page paper on it last year.

Finally, in your last couple paragraphs, you appear to be stating that since I don't have irrefutable proof that there is a problem, this is itself proof that there must be none. I'm sorry if this makes me unpopular, I really am, but I will never stop being concerned about my bdsm until I understand its psychological roots and the effect is has on both my and my dom's psyche. I have concern for others, too, but I will keep it to myself outside of this one request for understanding because I am in no position to poke into others' affairs - especially when I'm so far from understanding them. As I tried to communicate (though probably failed) in the original post, I am trying to understand this in part so I can alleviate that concern. Also, of course, because I just want to understand bdsm and things in general.

All the arguing aside, I do appreciate your recognition of my lifestyle. I'm starting to feel like I'm just not good enough because I'm not submissive enough to some people in various bdsm communities.

Curtis, um, you're talking to me, right? I don't have a husband! I'm far too commitmentphobic! And vegetables are yummy if you don't dull your taste buds with junk food. But thank you for your vote of confidence. *curtsey*

Finding_Fantasy, thank you! I believe this very strongly but I daren't say it because I'm running into people chewing submissives out for leaving without asking permission. It's driving me up the wall.

Nightstriker, I know! Though, it seems like I'm getting three new questions for every answer I get. I hope I'm learning something, even though I feel so damn confused.

[albear]

Heya duktig

Don't worry about what people tell you punishments should and shouldn't be (regardless of how many exclamation points they use) Just take what you enjoy out of BDSM and leave the rest, and don't worry what people tell you should and shouldn't happen. "Bring your own salt" sort of deal. I don't understand the 24/7 thing, but people who are lifestyle people obviously get something out of it. And don't sulk, pouting is much cuter

[AndrewBlack]

Here, here. It would be a much duller place if everyone felt the same. I don't think there's a way you're 'supposed' to be with this, sounds like you have a pretty good time anyway so why change anything?

[slavelucy]

i've been trying to work out how to respond to this thread succinctly, because it's one that threatens to yap on and on.

What i came up with is that BDSM or perhaps specifically, Ds...is an ethos or 'system' which is free from specifics (must include sex, must be practiced for X amount of time etc)...the specifics are applied by individuals in terms of whether it's a sexual thing, whether it's a lifestyle thing etc.

Incidentally, it's probably also why we're all talking about very different things, under the one umbrella, a lot of the time.

sl

[Eraser]

I would be very surprised if it causes you any distress, humiliation, self-doubt, attack to your personality or sacrifice of something meaningful in your life.

Thats a rather unfair statement. Would I say its cause life altering of any of those? Absolutely not. That specific example HAS caused many of those. First off admitting it publicly I found embarrassing but used it as example in a hope to help you. Caused me self-doubt I can't even FATHOM to explain to how that has happened nor would I be willing to do so publicly and endure more humiliation because of it. Attacks on my personality? absolutely more then once including to the point of the removal of an officers position in a local BDSM (so called community group) lets also touch on the public chastisement for it. Including the main reason I switched to this forum from another. So I would say your cross analogy is anywhere near fair.

Most importantly, it's reciprocal. I'm sure she does equal things for you.

In this part your 101% correct. It is reciprocal and also gratitude for the devoting she gives me. But its not something I have to do for her she would be just as devout if I didn't.


[QUOTE=duktig flicka]And onwards to the issue with why people choose to be submissive. You seem to imply that the only way a human mind can possibly be made to act against its nature is if society blatantly says they have to act in precisely one way. {/QUOTE]
How is being submissive acting against the nature of the human mind? It seems to me a rather common part of the human mind in nature and in people. My interpretation I would gather from your vantage point that acting as a submissive does in a 24/7 sense is "wrong" because its anti-feminist.

there are hundreds of other psychological issues that could make a person enter into unhealthy situations.

This is a question not an attack.
Are you saying then by acting in the sense as we have discussed is unhealthy?

Moreover, you seem to be ignoring how women definitely are socially conditioned and socially expected to be submissive.

I"m not ignoring this fact at all, but are you saying that all women are submissive are doing so only because of social programming? Women are socially programmed, Men are socially programmed. Consumers are socially programmed. I was actually parentally programmed to exist the nearly the exact opposite of the way I do. I don't ignore this at all

Finally, in your last couple paragraphs, you appear to be stating that since I don't have irrefutable proof that there is a problem, this is itself proof that there must be none.

That was not my intention in those statement I apologize if you felt I meant it that way. I'm not qualified to make a broad based psychological judgment if there is or is not a problem. What I simple mean to say is, just because you or I can qualify foundational proof that BDSM is "damaging" or "harmful" or not does not make it wrong.

I will never stop being concerned about my bdsm until I understand its psychological roots and the effect is has on both my and my dom's psyche. I have concern for others, too, but I will keep it to myself outside of this one request for understanding because I am in no position to poke into others' affairs - especially when I'm so far from understanding them. As I tried to communicate (though probably failed) in the original post, I am trying to understand this in part so I can alleviate that concern. Also, of course, because I just want to understand bdsm and things in general.

I took your understanding of your original posting to be more of a broad question of the "why", not a specific application of it to your own psyche. Nor would I be inclined to stem to believe myself capable of even stating a general conclusion as to where your psychological roots lay when it comes to BDSM or as to its effect on either yours or your doms psyche. I'm not qualified to make that type of judgment. I do however understand the general subject matter of why certain people including myself prefer a 24/7 existance in the lifestyle as opposed just doing specific kink in the bedroom to get each other off.

All the arguing aside, I do appreciate your recognition of my lifestyle. I'm starting to feel like I'm just not good enough because I'm not submissive enough to some people in various bdsm communities.

The only offering I can bring to your own understand is my personal unprofessional view that there is NOTHING wrong with NOT being 24/7 nor does it make you any less of a submissive. I can also offer you links to 3 doctoral thesis on the topic of the possible perceived and analyzed view points of the foundation BDSM Dominants and submissive's.

I'm not an armchair general on this topic. I've lived the lifestyle for 1/3 of my life I have read and educated myself to a level above average of those in the lifestyle and am pursuing my own Masters in psychology and hopefully my doctorate in health education specializing in human sexuality.

[Eraser]

oh yea, one other side note of a comment, I despise the mentality of certain BDSM clique's that the females "rightfull" or "natural" position is submissive.



oh course it just looks stupid for me to go off on that tangent and see my own jiggly butt signature at the bottom LOL

[Dngnkeeper]

I can also offer you links to 3 doctoral thesis on the topic of the possible perceived and analyzed view points of the foundation BDSM Dominants and submissive's.

Please do

[Eraser]

Please do

http://www.arizonapowerexchange.org/academia.htm

[vistana]

I've really enjoyed reading this thread, because I also have a lot of trouble wrapping my brain around the idea of a 24/7 D/s relationship.

I just tell myself that everyone is different, what works for other people can scare the shit out of me, and what I like would probably really creep out most of my friends.

I think if you can't grasp the appeal of a certain lifestyle/kink/variant thereof, then no matter how many people try to logically explain it to you, it's not really going to help. If you don't get it or like it, other people telling you that it's okay for them won't help you much. Understanding something intellectually really does not make it easier to really 'get'.

So my advice is to not worry about not being 'submissive enough', and just accept that some people think about things very diferently from you (or I, for that matter ).

That's my two cents, hopefully I said something useful.

[duktig flicka]

Okay, Eraser. You win this time. I'll play your little bit-by-bit, quote-by-quote post layout game!

Thats a rather unfair statement. Would I say its cause life altering of any of those? Absolutely not. That specific example HAS caused many of those.

Well, if you're willing to make sacrifices that large for the sake of another's will, then I suppose that's up to you. But I wouldn't, and I wouldn't want anyone else to do so for me.

Are you saying then by acting in the sense as we have discussed is unhealthy?

Of course not. I'm saying I'm concerned. Though I didn't directly mean the thread to be about my concern. I meant it more so that I could understand it. I bring up my concern mostly just because I want to admit that it may colour my discussion of it and warn people that I can be biased. Also because part (though definitely not all) of the reason I seek to understand it is so I can see if I can alleviate that concern.

I"m not ignoring this fact at all, but are you saying that all women are submissive are doing so only because of social programming?

I'm saying that it is possible, and also that other psychological reasons which are not healthy could get people involved in bdsm. I know many people deny this possibility, and they are welcome to do so, and I'm not going to tell them have to do otherwise. I personally refuse to deny the possibility, no matter how much people tell me I should, until I see proof either way.

What I simple mean to say is, just because you or I can qualify foundational proof that BDSM is "damaging" or "harmful" or not does not make it wrong.

Why would it? Why do you feel the need to say this?

I took your understanding of your original posting to be more of a broad question of the "why", not a specific application of it to your own psyche.

It applies to me because it applies to a community I'm a part of. It applies to me because examining different levels of bdsm will help me understand it at my own level of participation. It applies to me because I had an emotional reaction to it (it frightened me). Also, I just want to understand.

oh yea, one other side note of a comment, I despise the mentality of certain BDSM clique's that the females "rightfull" or "natural" position is submissive.

Um...I'm not sure I'd get so far as to despise that, because it's just absurd. At that point I would firmly say that the person has a mental problem.

[Eraser]

I wish you the best in your relationship and I hope you discover what your looking for and are happy.

[duktig flicka]

Awww. I was enjoying arguing.

I really believe arguing is the best way to learn. When someone makes a point you can't argue with, then you know you've stumbled on something new.

But thank you for your good thoughts. *curtsey curtsey*

[Eraser]

There isn't a single point you have made in the prior post that I could not argue or debate with. But at the point the discussion is currently at I feel that my statements could be construed as either directly derogatory, insulting, or considered a personal attack. It could be the fact that I just woke up or some other reason. I would still invite you to read:

http://www.arizonapowerexchange.org/academia.htm

The Development of Sadomasochism as a Cultural Style in the Twentieth-Century United States, a dissertation by Robert V. Bienvenu II, Ph.D. This document traces the development of the SM culture, both heterosexual and gay, from 1930 to 1971. This definitive document uses information from the Kinsey Institute and from the Leather Archives, and is a must for anyone who is interested in the history of our past.

APEX Survey is a profile of the members of the Arizona Power Exchange in 2000. It was intended as a scientific study with a byproduct to be used to guide the organization.

The DSM – Classifying Sex as an Illness is a look at the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual used by Psychiatrist and the legal establishment to codify and classify mental illness.

Partner Selection, Power Dynamics, and Sexual Bargaining of BDSM Couples, a dissertation by Bert Cutler, Ph.D. This document is a study of long term BDSM couples, and reveals trends and common elements used in these successful relationships.

SM and Feminist Thought is a look at the two opposing feminist views.


http://www.enslavement.org.uk/essays.html

the last link I feel maybe a bit much for you on many points as the arguments based ideology that you feel is "harmful"

[johnglenn11]

I will do nothing to my sub unless in the end I know she will be glad we did it, yes she might be afraid, yes she might beg me not to...but if I do...my goal in the end is to know she will be happy I did not listen and forged ahead...my goal is great orgasisms for both but I am married to anyother as is my sub, and perhaps we are both just more sexually oriented than a 24/7 situation...johnglenn11

First of all, I want to apologize in advance to anyone who this offends. Though my response to the 24 hour bdsm is negative, I really am trying to understand it and see the alternative point of view.

It has only recently come to my attention that for some people, bdsm is not just something that is limited to the bedroom, so to speak. As I would absolutely not tolerate anything less than equal treatment from my boyfriend in anything outside of sex, I'm utterly confused and somewhat emotionally distressed by this idea.

After seeing this page, I was very taken aback by a particular quote:

I like to have them write down 10 punishments and 10 rewards. After they have written them down, I sit down and go over the rewards and the punishments with them. Here is where a submissive will try to be somewhat sneaky, if they have a spanking fetish and have spanking down as a punishment then that needs to go to the "rewards jar" and not the "punishment jar."

If she doesn't like it, why would you do it? How would a person consent to bdsm if they don't enjoy it? I can't understand for a moment why someone would consent to a sexual practice they don't actually enjoy. The article even goes on to say that a dom absolutely must not include sex or anything sexual during punishment. Huh? I thought sexuality was the whole point! What place does bdsm have outside of sex? I also read another thread earlier, which spoke of the same thing - how to punish a sub with things they truly don't like.

Is bdsm really "real" for some people, rather than play and role-playing for the sake of a sexual fetish? Is one person truly considered lesser than the other? If that's the case, how can one separate bdsm from abuse?

Note that I do understand being pushed a little into things I don't really enjoy because that in itself is a turn-on. Sometimes my boyfriend makes me do things I don't like during play, since it turns us both on that he's making me do something I don't want to do. But I'm referring to these punishments I see people writing about which are meant to be truly unpleasant or downright cruel for the submissive, so as to actually condition them not to do something again.

Could somebody please help me to try and understand this?

EDIT: Just to add, another reason this is putting a strain on me is that many people have put forth that bdsm is anti-feminist. I usually argue with them that bdsm is simply a sexual fetish that has no reason to negatively affect an otherwise egalitarian relationship. My argument seems to fall flat on its face now and my level of comfort with bdsm is flitting away as I start to get nervous that I'm part of something oppressive.

[Spitman]

A point that has not been mentioned in here is the responsibility of being a Master 24/7. The Master has an awesome responsibility to keep providing guidance and direction to the sub on a 24/7 basis. Of course this can be done by establishing rules, but that is a copout because the sub carries on doing stuff while the Dom is not actually fulfilling his role 24/7. It must take an incredible level of attention on the part of the Dom to understand what works for the sub in the relationship, and provide the necessary guidance, direction, rewards and punishment on a 24/7 basis.

I don't have a problem with any kind of sexual orientation, whether it is M/f, M/m, F/m or F/f although my personal preference is probably about 70% M/f and 30% F/m. The only problem I have with sexual orientation is if you can only declare your orientation as straight or gay. I do not feel comfortable with the idea of being 100% responsible for every decision. I like a woman who is as imaginative as myself, and games that use the ideas of both partners for mutual pleasure, including both male and female self bondage. So my view on this seems to be coloured by my own orientation, which is hardly a surprise!

In a society that is rich with activities and opportunities, although I am always conscious of my sexuality, it does not play a conscious part in everything I do, and I would not expect any different from a female partner. The satisfaction and rewards that we get from playing a part in professional, social and cultural activities are not sexual in nature, but worthwhile nevertheless. We are who we are not just because of a relationship with one person, but through all of our contributions and interactions in the larger world of society as a whole. I would not want D/S to be a conscious undercurrent in an inappropriate context.

This is not intended to be taken as a criticism of D/S relationships. I am just describing how I see them from my own perspective. BDSM is as much a part of my life as it is to anyone in here, but I am far more interested in sharing thoughts and ideas than imposing my own.

I appreciate and admire people who obviously derive great satisfaction from participation on both sides in a 24/7 D/S relationship, and evidently this applies to many of those who have contributed in here. However there are cases where a sub was unable to exit from an overly life-controlling D/S relationship that closed off the ability to express personality, and led to extreme psychological problems. The existence of problems in a few cases does not mean that it cannot work, but being aware that this can happen gives a responsibility to the Dominant partner to be willing to step back if the sub is being suffocated by it.

I feel that any kind of loving partnership requires both parties to understand each other, and put the partner's feelings and interests before their own. A good D/S relationship can evolve, but is based on a good deal of dialogue and agreement on rules and limits. It should never involve a total disregard for the interests and the personality of the sub.

[rockhardy]

I think it's more of an overall thing, you don't like that act but you like the fact that you have to do what he wants or face the punishment.

You don't like the punishment but you like the overall idea of training and punishments

[magicgrl]

This has probably beating a dead horse-- i have been known to do that, however, after reading one who questions the 24/7 lifestyle i feel compelled to share.

my Master and i went through a rough time recently. Life circumstances robbed us of our lifestyle and we hit the "Vanilla Slide" (as i call it) in a major way. i was working in a high pressure job 60-80 hours per week, seven days per week. There was no time for anything that remotely looked like D/s. He made the coffee every night, He made the bed every morning, He got the children off to school and tucked in each night because i was not around. We began to fight constantly-- everything turned into an argument. i was miserable and so was He.

Separate sex from our D/s life? Somehow He Dominated me in the bedroom and nowhere else? Impossible. my submission is linked to my sex drive, because i was not submissive sex was out of the question. This transcends sex-- it is WHO i am.

At any rate, Master told me that if i wanted to serve Him again i would have to ask. i would have to request to return to once again have the privilege of being His slave. Nervous as i was, i wrote Him an e-mail: subject heading: "It is time..." This came after an awful fight and i knew i could not live like i was anymore. ii requested that i be permitted to serve Him again. He was indeed hesitant--i had been far from submissive for so long. He laid out His rules and expectations--harsh to be sure. i would be permitted to do very little without permission and punishment for deviance would be swift and harsh. Suffice it to say, i accepted His terms.

i am happy once more. i have never felt so loved and cherished in all my life. Sure, i get punished--however, the pride i see in my Master's face when i kneel before Him---when i worship Him--that is priceless. i am a lucky slave.

So, "Why 24/7 BDSM?" Because that is simply how some of us are built. i guess i would have agreed with you a few weeks ago. i loved my job. i loved the constant stimulation it gave me. i loved that it challenged my mind--however, my soul was lost. ineed His control. Am i somehow less liberated? No, because i found freedom (the definition of liberation.)

i hope i did not bore anyone....

*~magic~*