Very worried that current bdsm is caused by past abuse

[duktig flicka]

I need to get some things off my chest in order to be able to ask a question I really need to ask. These have always been deep, dark secrets that I have not shared with anyone - except for my boyfriend in a very vague manner - so please forgive me if I'm not handling this appropriately.

The basic question is twofold: Why do I enjoy bdsm and is it harming me? Then there's the background. My dad was very sadistic and had a Dr. Jekyl and Mr. Hyde personality. He was prone to losing his temper out of the blue, at which time he became violent towards me and did humiliating things like throwing me to the floor and pinning my face down with his foot.

I was also pretty isolated growing up. I had to be home-schooled as I was training as a pre-professional ballet dancer full time since I was 8. You may or may not know that the ballet industry endorses teachers and directors to verbally and emotionally abuse dancers constantly. Less than perfection in performance and appearance was not tolerated and anyone who came over 105-110 lbs at the weekly public weigh-ins could look forward to several weeks of hell till she shed that fat.

As such, every male I saw when I was growing up was sadistic and every female was destroying herself to please them. Neat role models.

I would say it is highly improbable that this history and my desire to be dominated, humiliated and hurt are unconnected. The kind of things that turn me on often emulate my unpleasant past experiences. However, I don't actually know this, which is driving me insane. I'm hoping someone might have some insight on that. From a biopsychological point of view, it makes sense - children have a survival instinct to mold themselves to what their parents wish them to be in order to ensure that their parents take care of them. See also Stockholm Syndrome.

Also, an experience in adulthood appears to have affected my turn-ons. I was held prisoner for a year by a man who took my virginity and disciplined me very bdsm style (minus the consent). His main tactic was to shut me in a box when I was not obedient. I have since developed a fantasy for being kept in a cage. Coincidence? Possibly, since I get a bit of a panic attack whenever I see a suitably sized box and that's definitely no turn-on.

I am really, really, really dying to know what psychological effect bdsm has on a person. Is it harmful? Is it therapeutic? None of the above? Am I exploiting my boyfriend for the sake of vain self-loathing by taking part in it with him? Would it be possible to "get rid of it" and start enjoying vanilla sex? Or is it just harmless fun?

Sorry for airing dirty laundry. I just can't keep this down any longer. I need answers.

[ValKyrie]

I have met a number of people who are involved in D/s who have a history of abuse. I have also met many other people in vanilla relationships with the same history. There are arguements both ways.

My opinion, for what it is worth:

Certainly, our upbringing could impact our desires, but should not dictate them.

By that, BDSM should NEVER be used in as therapy for past issues, issues that need to be dealt with. If you have unresolved issues surrounding the abuse, you need to see a therapist, do for yourself and make yourself healthy and complete before taking the emotional risks attached to humiliation play.

I found your comments regarding the female role models in your life interesting. I want to tell you that D/s should never be about ruining yourself for another. A healthy D/s relationship promotes growth, health, happiness and self efficacy.

So, could your history have anything to do with your current desires? Sure.

Could your history be the prevailing reason for your desires? Possibly. But if so, leave those desires behind and get some support and assistance in recognizing and dealing with whatever emotional scars remain.

Best wishes to you,

Mistress Val

[spike]

I would say it is highly improbable that this history and my desire to be dominated, humiliated and hurt are unconnected. … From a biopsychological point of view, it makes sense - children have a survival instinct to mold themselves to what their parents wish them to be in order to ensure that their parents take care of them.

Adolescents also have a survival instinct to ignore their parents if they are clearly wrong. This is what causes young ‘rebels without a cause’. That instinct has been triggered without a focus. Cultural evolution depends on the two instincts.

Some people get their interest in BDSM your way - the man with the box probably more than the boot on the head which is not very sexual. Some get it by rebelling against restrictive parents, trying anything their parents would hate. Some get it by really wanting to be what their parents wanted – that’s where the service-oriented d/s stuff comes from I would guess. (Anyone got any evidence?)

The big point is, that while it is nice to work out how you came to be who you are, it is much nicer to accept who you are, to celebrate who you are, and to have fun whoever you are.

Spike

[ValKyrie]

Good post, Spike.

I do think many of us finding the lifestyle later on in life, spend an awful lot of time trying to understand "why" rather than being able to simply enjoy our discovery.

For me, it took me a couple of years to actually stop questioning myself, who I was and the choices I made. Once I had rid myself of much of my vanilla thinking, I was able to enjoy and embrace the Me that had been latent for so long.


I wish the same for everyone entering the lifestyle as it the journey is troublesome, but the destination is peace and happiness.

[spike]

Thanks, Val. That post had a lot more in it in draft, all sorts of theory about how cultural evolution works but it all went when I looked at the last paragraph and realised most of the rest was made irrelevant by it. Party on!

Spike

[Mobius]

Well I certainly hope the person that held you prisoner is spending some quality time with a guy named Bubba but in Luxembourg I guess his name would be Helmut Say 25 years experiencing anal rape is a suitable punishment for what you went through.

I have read of 2 women that were held in Russia were they were abducted when they were teens repeatable raped and impregnated tortured until they were discovered when they were 28. There was also A woman in the US that was held in a box under this guys bed for over 10 years. She eventually felt that she belonged there. She visited her family went shopping but returned to her box under the bed. Never said any thing of her captivity. She was Finlay found the Captor thrown in the clink. She wrote a book that I have been trying to find. Don't imagine it being very erotic.

As for me, I was never abused and I never or have never abused any one. I guess that make's me a self made perv.
I can remember getting a woody during an episode of the thunder birds were the Puppets were tied up.(Hey I was only 8 what do you want). I also had a Major thing for Emma Peal in the avengers. Loved that Iron corset.

I am very sorry that my fantasy was your reality. It has always been a thing for me to possess a female sub. To remove her identity to control her completely.

You can rest assured that it will remain an unfofilled fantasy. Unless of course I win the Lottory and get 300 million. Then all bets are off. But seeing that I dont play the lottory, Female submissives accross the world can rest safe tonight.

[mythicat]

Noone has yet been able to prove any of the many theories behind why we like who or what we like, sexually speaking. Someone else who went through exactly what you did might have the opposite reaction and become dominant or sadistic themselves, refusing to let anyone else ever control them again; another might develop a foot fetish from focusing on the image of their father's foot in a position of power over them; a third may become asexual, fearing people too much to allow for intimacy; and a fourth could turn out completely vanilla in their tastes. I suspect there won't be any answers for a long time if ever. And maybe that's for the best. Personally I like a little mystery in my universe.

Also, an experience in adulthood appears to have affected my turn-ons. I was held prisoner for a year by a man who took my virginity and disciplined me very bdsm style (minus the consent). His main tactic was to shut me in a box when I was not obedient. I have since developed a fantasy for being kept in a cage. Coincidence? Possibly, since I get a bit of a panic attack whenever I see a suitably sized box and that's definitely no turn-on.

Reminded me a little of dreaming...how often our subconscious minds create dream scenarios in which we relive events or emotions or even stupid little mundane things we see on tv as a way to try to file and process the information. Maybe your cage fantasy could be something along those lines. Or maybe not. Just a little bubblegum for your brain.

[redEva]

Dear,

All the comments and responses you got so far are accurate and truthful, hopefully it will help you understand your own situation better.

There are few other threads on the board that are trying to find the answer to the same question you are posing.

I don’t think we (or anyone else for that matter) managed to come up with the reason why do we enjoy our particular kinks, and whether this behaviour is more of a nature or nurture. One thing, though, I feel needs to be stressed out is that with your history (little that we now know off) and your obvious pattern of thinking and questions that are arousing from it; ONLY safe and sane decision would be to try to find a professional who is “BDSM friendly” and who could help you answer the questions you have. Just as (I assume) you would not try to use ballet as a therapy for some emotional issues – you should not use BDSM for it.

You might have the affinity for it, that would have brought you into the lifestyle no matter what your past is, but you need to understand and deal with traumas you were put through, so that you can put that behind you, and enjoy what ever your chosen life style might be.

My very close friend was molested and sexually abused from when she was 2 till she was 9. Now she is 50 and still dealing with it. Human beings can survive hell, but healing is long and hard process.

I wish you all best, I hope you find the answers you are looking for and peace with yourself.

Brightest Blessings

P.S. few links
How did you find out about BDSM?
Does an interest in BDSM indicate a pattern of abuse in earlier life?
psychology

[slavelucy]

Firstly, i'm so sorry about some of your past experiences, it sucks.

There is a thread about this in this forum, called 'Does an interest in BDSM indicate abuse in earlier life?', i found it for ya, it's here:

http://www.bdsmlibrary.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1020

As you'll see on that thread, my overiding feeling on the matter is that one could never really know what parts of our past effect who we are, but, in the right circumstances, being involved in BDSM doesn't have to be something that should be worrying, whatever part of the reason for your interest is, it can turn something bad into something positive and enriching. i think what i mean is, the past isn't going to go away, so it's about proper and safe channeling.

Best regards to you.

lucy

[jaeangel]

There are times when i ask myself the same question.
I was adopted at eight months old and brought into the states by two people I call Mom and Dad. They never told me I was adopted (it finally came out when I was 22) but I think on some level I knew, because I was never treated the way a biological daughter would be treated (I think.) My mother was abusive...the incidents I remember most are the time I was ten and I got into her makeup, and one of her round brushes got tangled in my long hair. She was furious when she came home and found me with her hairbrush in my hair, and because she couldn't get it out, she grabbed the brush and literally dragged me down the hall and down stairs into the kitchen, where she proceeded to cut off all the hair that was caught with a steak knife. Then she took the scissors away that I was trying to even all of my hair off with and made me go to school for the rest of the week with big short and long patches in my hair. It was humiliating. The nuns (I was going to a cathiloc school at the time) were laughing, and so were all my classmates.
And then there was the time I was doing dishes and she came in to check if they were clean, and when she saw scratches on the bottom of one of her pots she went ballistic and chased me around the house waving a meat cleaver and telling me she was going to make me look like the pot. It wasn't even my fault, she found out later she'd made mashed potatoes and the electric blender left the same scratches on the bottom of the second pot that had been in the bottom of the first one. My father was never home. He said he was traveling for his company, and he'd be gone for months on end. only recently, when I hired a private investigator to find him, did I find out that he's now living in Virginia with another woman, has been snce he walked out on my family ten years agao, and his oldest child is now 18. I'm 25. this means that while I was getting beaten up and stuff, he was schmoozing with another woman and having kids with her. The bad part about it is that he's still married to my Mom.
Sorry. Just rambling. I don't have any answers to offer you, except to say that I wondered abut that for a while. Am I enjoying BDSM because it reminds me of my childhood, and did my desire to be humiliated and used stem from those childhood incidents? Do I need to be in an abusive relationship (I was in one out of high school that put me in the hospital before I got out of it) for me to feel like I'm worth something to someone? Eventually, finding no answers to any of those questions, I stopped analyzing and just did what feels good. I'm happily married now to a vanilla man with 2 wonderful baby boys, and I wouldn't change anything about me, because I like who I am. And those experiences I had made me who I am.
I don't know if this helps, but I just wanted you to know I wonder about the same thing you do. You're not alone; especially in this board, there are lots of like-minded people here who understand and are sympathetic, and will help you come to terms with the issues you're fighting with. Hang in there!

[Pandora's Box]

I've been reading this topic... and to be honest I haven't been sure what to say until now.

We are, at least to some extent, a product of our environment. The human mind works in many mysterious and weird ways.

I even think that my needs as an adult tie into my needs that weren't met when I was a child.

But there is one question that keeps coming back to me.

Why does it even matter. I'm not being flipplant or glib. I just speak as someone that was so busy for a period of over 10 years wondering "why"... that I forgot the "how".

I could tell you, indepth, the "why's" of many of the things that makes me who I am and what I like. I can even point directly to individual instances and follow the string of events from those instances.

And while I do think it's important to have some kind of basic knowledge of "why"... it's not nearly as important as setting it aside and dealing with the now. Some will argue that you have to know the "why" in order to deal with things. To be honest... I'm not so sure. Not beyond the basics at least.

After a while it becomes like picking at a wound.

I've spent a lot of time living in the past. And it wasn't understanding "why" things happened that brought me out of it. In fact it was delving into "why" for so long that put me into a state of near catatonia.

It was being exposed to healthy attitudes and having access to a supportive network of friends that pulled me out of my "why" stupor - helped me to face reality. Those are the things that helped me stand up and deal with myself.

It is entirely possible to be healthy and balanced and still have an interest in bdsm. With and without abuse in your past.

I don't know... to me it is only of minor importance what got you to where you are now. It's what you intend to do with it and where you want to take it from here that counts.



My $ .02

[aou]

this thread made me register. just wanted to say that reading the posts about past abuse made me very very sad. violence between adults is bad enough, but the fact that parents do such things to their children, or adults to children under their care, is terrible. if i met such an adult, i'd probably lose my temper, finally.

that said, i myself enjoy the submissive role without any notable prior experience of abuse. although i suppose my tastes are relatively mild (bondage, light pain, always in a sexual context / situation).

i also enjoy the dominant role, if there's a submissive to enjoy it. (and i only like to give what i like to receive, no more -- happens to be a rule of mine with regular gift-giving, go figure.)

[duktig flicka]

Thank you all so much for your kind and insightful comments. You were all very helpful. I'm actually hoping to carry out some research on this far too neglected subject once I get to grad school.

Mobius, Emma Peel kicks much ass. Now quit turning me on.

jaeangel, you're not rambling, hon. I'm so sorry for what happened to you. If you need to talk about it at all, please let me know.

[masterkurt]

I read this thread with utmost interest and would share most of the analysis made and things that have been said. Real abuses in real life offend us all, especially if carried out against children and minors....

As far as my personal experiences are concerned, I did not come across any case of submissive woman with a story of abuses and mistreatments in her past.... on the contrary, my female submissive partners seemed to all come from very caring and loving families and their desires of submission and abuse seemed very a personal matter. On the contrary, I met a few women with a past of abuses and they were not inclined towards submission at all.....

This is just a very scarse statistic and may be non significant at all. On the other hand I do not have a suitable knowledge in psicology to find out a cause-effect relation in the familiar history of my submissive partners and their masochistic inclinations.

Having said all this, I could not avoid considering the events we read in duktig flicka's autobiographical flash also under a different perspective....

Couldn't it be possible that her latent submissive desires and masochistic inclinations have been, at least to a certain extent, the CAUSE and not the consequence of the peculiar way she lived certain events of her life?

The ballet world, for instance ..... certainly a very demanding environment, but is it really such that pupils are willfully constantly abused and that every man in that milieu is a sadist and " every female destroying herself to please them" ?

If this was true, only truly submissive and masochistic females would stand and survive ballet schools and become professional dancers.... (I have to look for a dancer) ....

Personally I also don't believe that an adult, kept prisonner against his will and submitted to non consensual BDSM practises may ever develope a turn on for being jailed and disciplined ...

My 2 cents of wisdom could be so summarized:

If you find SM play enjoyable and you feel it enriches your sexual life, without causing you stress or guilt feelings, just go on practising it (in the usual recommended safe and consensual way)

If you think that your interest for BDSM is connected with your history of past abuses and that you still suffer from psycological wounds connceted with those events, then, do not try to use BDSM as some kind of do-it-yourself treatment. Rather look for professional help to look into yourself and to find a way to overcome those ghost from your past.

[mythicat]

The ballet world, for instance ..... certainly a very demanding environment, but is it really such that pupils are willfully constantly abused and that every man in that milieu is a sadist and " every female destroying herself to please them" ?

If this was true, only truly submissive and masochistic females would stand and survive ballet schools and become professional dancers.... (I have to look for a dancer)

I studied dance here in America for most of the 14 years between ages 5-19 (primarily modern and jazz, just 1yr ballet) and it was a universal joke across all genres of dance that to be a dancer you HAD to be a masochist!

But in America, we do it to ourselves. If I'd had a teacher who was abusive I could easily have found another. Whereas in a lot of the rest of the world, the choices are fewer. In some places athletics are practically a form of slavery where the parents ship the kids off to training facilities and hardly ever see them again. In some places, as brutal as training can be, it's the only chance at a life above the poverty level and if you have the talent you'd be a fool to squander it. And sometimes a love of dance is just undeniable and you do what you have to in order to make it your life. As for the trainers, they don't always have much choice either. When the state runs your program, you have a lot of pressure on you to turn out stars as efficiently as possible. Plus that's the way in which they were probably trained themselves, it's all they know. If they didn't have it in them to work their students hard, they'd likely soon be trying to find other work. And what else would they be qualified for?

[Mobius]

Not to make light at a very bad situation. With your dancers back ground you can always get work. Legitably and non legitable. You could always dance in the review from any thing from broadway to ice capades. You can be a model at trade shows and the like. Non legitable you can make huge bucks as a stripper.

[BDSM_Tourguide]

Have a look at this thread for more information about your concerns.

[BDSM_Tourguide]

In fact, you're not even close to being alonve. Many people have kink, submission or domination fantasies because of things occuring in their past.

I did a poll in a group I used to run for BDSMers in Houston, TX. In this poll, it was determined that every single one of the submissives in that group was abused at some point in their lives by someone that they loved or trusted.

However, the mystery remains. Would they have led a "normal" life had it not been for their abuse, or would they have found BDSM anyway? Who knows? All we can do is offer our opinions and our support to those that have had this tragedy befall them.

[mythicat]

Not to make light at a very bad situation. With your dancers back ground you can always get work. Legitably and non legitable. You could always dance in the review from any thing from broadway to ice capades. You can be a model at trade shows and the like. Non legitable you can make huge bucks as a stripper.

Sure, til your body falls apart. Even Jackie Chan is doing more acting than fighting these days! lol You can only perform for so long before the wear and tear on your body wins out. Or you're simply too old to hire. Or, like in my case, an injury ends things even sooner, leaving you without enough of a resume to teach. And it also left me with an inability to work on any kind of stage, legit or otherwise. (Which is probably a good thing, or else I would have been tempted. ) So what happens then? Well, in my case I had other skills and opportunities. Not everyone is so lucky.

[mythicat]

However, the mystery remains. Would they have led a "normal" life had it not been for their abuse, or would they have found BDSM anyway? Who knows? All we can do is offer our opinions and our support to those that have had this tragedy befall them.

Saw a documentary recently that highlighted a study in which they were able to determine that by as soon as I think 9 months, infants had already developed a social interaction style. (They didn't know for sure if it was permanent or not.) If I remember right, the researchers believed it had to do with a combination of inherent personality + whether or not the child had developed a healthy attachment to its mother...not too withdrawn OR too clingy.

So if you're going to try to solve that mystery, you might just end up going back as far as the womb!

But I don't personally believe it can be solved. There's plenty of evidence that sub's (and Dom's) have a frequent history of abuse, but there's also plenty of abuse victims who aren't kinky at all. And for that matter, it's hard to find anyone anywhere who didn't have SOME kind of trauma in their life at some point. I can't think of anyone I know. That's just life. And even if nothing bad ever did happen to you, wouldn't THAT be boring and make you want to seek out some exciting perviness???

[duktig flicka]

masterkurt, I'm actually very surprised that you seem to have met dancers who weren't very unstable. Are you sure they were professional ballet dancers? Professional ballet academies admit you when you're a child, you are there literally all day from morning to night. You are not allowed to go out and be social, you are not allowed to date. I had hardly ever met a straight guy until I was 18. For dancers, the treatment I described literally all they know.

I don't, however, think it's fair to say that dancers are masochists. I don't know anybody who didn't hate the way we had to live. It's just that dance is absolute euphoria, to the point where you see dancers with blood squishing in their pointe shoes and they literally haven't even noticed. The more depressed you make a dancer, the more she'll need to dance and the more beautiful her dancing will be. This is exactly why Balanchine "revolutionized" the ballet industry to ensure that dancers were depressed and anorexic. He was very frank and open about that.

mythicat, another dancer! Very nice to meet you! Actually, I'm trying not to give away my identity here, but I'm American. I've only been in Sweden for the past few years. That kind of thing doesn't exist in Sweden, the people before profit attitude is very strictly enforced. Are you still dancing for fun? I hope so, it's so good for you.

[mythicat]

I dunno...I think once you go from "I take dance lessons after school on Wednesdays" to "I spend 2-3 hours training everyday, 4-6 on Saturdays, and club dancing when I get the chance"...that you've crossed a line into compulsive self abuse. Make it ballet and you've gone further over the line. Make it professional ballet school and I'm sorry, but in my book you're hardcore whether you got off on it or not! lol

But yeah, it's worth it. I still have chronic pain. I still dance for fun. I could be in a wheelchair and I'd still spin myself around in circles.
I don't regret it at all.

Hello, my name is Mythicat, and I'm a compulsive dance addict.

[masterkurt]

duktic flicka wrote:

" I'm trying not to give away my identity here, but I'm American. " ....

Ok, this is good news .... I was feeling too depressed about your english, too fluent for any foreigner

Hmmm ... but in this case you learned ballet in USA .... not in Soviet Union, and this contraddicts mythicat who stated:

"But in America, we do it to ourselves. If I'd had a teacher who was abusive I could easily have found another. Whereas in a lot of the rest of the world, the choices are fewer...."

Excellence can be achieved only thru hard work and sufference, not only in ballet, but true passion drives you ahead (the love for ballet in your caes, for horseback riding in my case ... it's slowly killing me ) ... so I cannot really accept your fresco of ballet schools as "lagers" and theatres of phisical and psycological abuse on children and young people.


I have met many girls who frequented ballet schools. Most just as a hobby...
(One of them has been my girlfriend when we were in our twenties and revealed herself as a passionate slave). Another went over to a professional academy (Ia Ruskaya in Rome) and became a professional dancer and earns good money now, even if she never became a top dancer. I know with certainty that she had strong submissive tendencies, already before starting her ballet studies, as she confessed them to my sister.

My sister herself started ballet (in very early age) at the ballet school of the Vienna Opera House ... she enjoyed it a lot and small girls like her (she started at 4-5 years of age) were treated in a lovely way.... Though, my sister and me used to play master and slave when we were children and carried our plays up to when we became teenagers..... she was very submissive and masochistic, but was never mistreated, neither in the family, nor at the ballet school.

Some year ago I met a swiss submissive woman ... she was very submissive and strongly exhibitionistic .... can you guess? she was also a dancer (even if not as first profession) ... she told me about her excitement one time that she set up a modern ballet where she danced in her nude .... (a serious modern ballet, not some lap dance ... )

Perhaps there is indeed a relation between submissive tendencies and ballet, but, in my experience, the submissive inclination was always pre-exsisting and I never found records of abuses.

I also met a male who had been a professional dancer .... he was straight, rather dominant .... he started dancing casually, went on because he loved it and also, so he confessed, because there was plenty of females and scarse competition in dating them (many male dancers were not really masculine).

So ... possibly girls with submissive tendencies are very attracted by ballet (and by strong discipline)... perhaps it satisfies both their masochistic and their exhibitionistic dreams.... Perhaps for the same reasons you can find a certain percentage of neurotic women (and anoressic girls) in this milieu .....

But, if this is true ( my statistics base on a much too little population), then, dear Flicka, you could feel resured .....

Go ahead and enjoy the pleasures of BDSM without any anguish or anxiety .... with the right partner, of course.


Post Scriptum:
If you ever plan to visit Florence or Pisa ....

[duktig flicka]

Sorry to argue with you, but do you really think that 3-year-olds take up ballet because they understand what it's going to be like for them and the idea makes them hot?

[mythicat]

Sorry to argue with you, but do you really think that 3-year-olds take up ballet because they understand what it's going to be like for them and the idea makes them hot?

I think at least part of the problem was that your homelife sucked too. You should have had parents looking out for your well-being. But as we all know, that system is often an "imperfect" one as well...to say the least.

I just hope the rest of your life makes up for it with interest!

[duktig flicka]

Very sweet of you. Thank you.

[masterkurt]

I don't think I have ever stated that ...

To be frank I don't think that anybody here will be able to confirm or to deny the possibility of your submissive tendencies being a consequence of your past experiences of abuse.... A professional psicologist could perhaps build up his own theory on the basis of deep conversations with you and on an amount of other cases he might be aware of.

I found it rather surprising (I never had noticed it before) that so many submissive women I knew had had ballet trining in their young years .... just a funny coincidence? THough none of these women had experienced abusive situations neither at the ballet school, nor in their families ... as far as I know.

I quoted it just for the sake of conversation and annedotes .... not to draw a rule.

The only advise I feel able to give you, is to live your submissiveness without anguish or guilt, if you find it enjoyable and only for the time you keep finding it enjoyable, but to keep your fingers away from SM experiences if they make you feel bad, guilty or not free.

[duktig flicka]

The only advise I feel able to give you, is to live your submissiveness without anguish or guilt, if you find it enjoyable and only for the time you keep finding it enjoyable, but to keep your fingers away from SM experiences if they make you feel bad, guilty or not free.

What if both apply?

[masterkurt]

"What if both apply?"

Then, at least theoretically, I think you should look into yourself and analyse your motivations and try to accept yourself, even in your darker sides.

In this light it seems less important to find out where your dark desires come from .... the point is to accept and to manage them without guilt or stress.

My former slave caroline (she never danced) was excellent in this attitude. As long as she felt she had to be a slave, she managed to be totally submissive in such a linear and selfconsciuos way ... when she felt she no longer had those needs, she just stopped it, mantaining the same good psicological balance.

[masterkurt]

duktig flicka = capable girl ?

I guessed duktig ..... in german there is a similar word " tuechtig"

in german it could be translated as "tuechtiges Flittchen" ...


very nice nickname