masochism and selfdestruction

[toolongtoosoon]

where do you think the line is drawn where it is self destructive as opposed to being masochism for example it you cut yourself there are many motivations one could be blood if you like that, or the pain, or like many young folks these days because of depression. Is that action what matters or is it the motivation behind the action let me know.

[ElectricBadger]

Hmm...the first tell-tale sign is the end effect...if it's something that's truly injuring yourself, it's bad. In an extreme, it is the action that matters, yes. But not all play is like that; much is very controlled and light.

Having done such things for both reasons, I can define a big difference: cutting and pain as an escape, as something to overwhelm bad feelings or emotions, is bad; it's good when it intensifies pleasure. That is, if you're feeling down when you start, then it's probably a bad way to deal with emotions; if you're feeling happy and content beforehand, then it can be viewed a lot more healthily.

[Flaming_Redhead]

It's the motivation that matters from a medical standpoint. Wikipedia has articles about sadism and masochism as medical terms as well as aspects of BDSM.

Sadism and masochism, in the original sense, describe psychiatric disorders characterized by feelings of sexual pleasure or gratification when inflicting suffering or having it inflicted upon the self, respectively. Sadomasochism is used in psychiatry to describe either the co-occurrence of sadism and masochism in one person as separate disorders, or as a replacement for both terms, depending on the theory used. The definitions of sadism and masochism in medicine have been modified repeatedly since they were introduced by the Austrian psychiatrist Richard Freiherr von Krafft-Ebing in the 19th century (Krafft-Ebing 1901).

The results of the newer studies have led to calls to abolish sadism and masochism as disease categories completely, arguing that the truly pathological forms are adequately covered by other diagnoses. The sadomasochistic subculture added a political dimension to this drive with claims of discrimination and by pointing to the precedent of removing of homosexuality from the list of mental disorders [5].

In response, the American Psychiatric Association modified the criteria for sadism and masochism in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM IV) in 1994 so that consensual sadomasochistic behavior alone is not considered a sexual disorder anymore. However, in the DSM-IV TR, published in 2000, sadomasochistic behavior can be diagnosed if the patient acts on these sexual urges, even if it is consensual [citation needed]. In 1995, Denmark became the first country to completely remove sadomasochism from its classification of diseases [6].

How sadism and masochism develop and why some people find these practices pleasurable remains unclear. Various current theories include childhood experiences, endorphin-based mechanisms, learned behavior, genetic dispositions, and simple conscious choice. Why consensual BDSM and pathological sadomasochism as defined by DSM IV share some of the same superficial characteristics is also unknown.

[DrkRvn]

I think the motivation behind it counts and also how far you take it. Once something becomes a hinderance to your life it has definately gone too far. I was once a cutter for depression reasons, but now looking back it wasn't about destroying myself it was a cry for help. It was the pain i was having inside finally coming to veiw on the surface so that someone might see it and help me. I was also just numb and wanted to feel something and pain worked mroe than anythign else. there might be some that would say it was self destruction, but I viewed it as more a life line, because really at that point in my life I just wanted to fade away.

The cutting was a very small managable thing, but once it starts to grow to a point where you are doing large amounts of harm to yourself is really when it becomes destruction. I think it happens more with addictions to things that masocism.

[gagged_Louise]

I totally agree it's the motivation that counts, what kind of drives are really behind one's need to submit and to endure bondage, whippings and (staged) control and abuse. Sure, a D/s relation can become a screen for bad abuse, both mental and physical - the Dominant wishing to prove inflated ideas about his/her ego, the slave wishing to deify Master or Mistress and get rid of some choices he/she doesn't want to handle.
We've all heard of teen girls who fall in love with convicted killers and sadistic psychopaths and write love letters to them, or even help them escape from jail, and if it works they may endure some very rough treatment and just get totally uncritical, cutting off thir own good sense to worship the psycho Master. This happens even in modern countries like the US, Britain or Sweden, but in those cases, the motive power behind isn't really the kind of trusting submission that bdsm should be about. And I guess there's also a strong lack of playfulness in those killer/damsel relationships, at least after a while.

It's no coincidence that terrorist groups such as the German RAF ["Baader Meinhof Gang") sometimes used rape and shock abuse of new converts to a cell, or forced them to do something where they might have to break the relations to their old friends or even get caught by the police for a minor crime, to make them easier to mould and blot out their sense of dignity and value. Sure, somehow similar non-con situations happen in harsh bdsm stories of kinky castles and frightening Doms, but the difference is, one is reality and outside of any erotic or personal bonding - you don't join a terrorist group to make cozy friends - while the bdsm storyline or RP is fantasy, used to explore something and then, sort of, return from, and it's totally up to anyone who's into bdsm how much you want to spice up your need for violent domination & bondage, or just for reading about it. I don't think any sensible slave honestly would want the Dom to cut out her tongue, or to spank you till you're permanently damaged, no matter if you'd feel juicily turned on by the image.

[TomOfSweden]

Here's my stab at understanding the issue.

"Do you want to feel less" vs "Do you want to feel more".

The basic premise is that the self-destructive does what he/she does because they feel bad while the masochist does it because they feel good.

Am I getting close?

[toolongtoosoon]

Thanks that all really helped but I do have the issue and I have yet to meet other people with this kink that is a fasination with blood not vampirism but blood in general even asking a psychologist I couldn't really get an awnser as to where it might have come from but none the less its still there. So if anyone knows anything that would be great. Thanks again for your responses.

[Hime]

I have a friend who is clinically depressed and cuts himself severely (the worst I've ever seen, honestly; his arms are covered with scars), and is also into Bdsm and is turned on by the idea of having someone else cut him. He says that for him, the two are completely unrelated -- he doesn't feel excited by cutting himself, he just does it to lessen the pain of depression. For him, as for a few other cutters I've known, the big problem is that after the endorphin high from cutting wears off, he feels ashamed of himself for doing it, which makes him more depressed, which makes him cut more, etc.

I don't think that the masochism involved in BDSM is like that. While someone involved in consensual sadomasochistic activities does receive the same endorphin high, I've never heard anyone talk about feeling bad afterward -- certainly most of the masochistic posters on this board seem to be comfortable with themselves and the activities that they enjoy.

I guess that was a long way of saying that for me, the difference between healthy masochism and unhealthy self-destruction is the effect more than the motivation. If something you do makes your life worse, not better (my habit of staying up really late posting on the internet, for example), then it is self-destructive. If you enjoy being cut because you are excited by the sight of blood, and doing it makes you feel good about yourself and your relationships, I don't think that that's self-destructive.

It's sort of like the difference between someone being overweight and happy that way, or someone being overweight because they can't break out of a cycle of eating and feeling guilty about it and eating more (not that I've ever done that or anything... ). It might look the same from the outside, but one person is in control of their life and one is not.

[Timberwolf]

Early in my masochistic exploration, I produced a series of marks that seem to be accidentally permanent. The pain itself was really nothing "extreme", but it did end up leaving marks, and I am still not particularly pleased about that. I haven't repeated that particular experiement since.

I guess my message being sometimes accidents happen and you go to far. Everyone makes mistakes, as long as you remember not to do them again I think you're still mentally in an okay place. If you do something that you know full well inside yourself isn't right for you to be doing or is going to cause you a kind of harm you know you will regret later, then it might be time to take a more serious look at what you need to do next.

There's nothing at all wrong with masochism. But as I like to remind people, it's not (generally) the "pain olympics" about taking as much as possible. It's about finding the level of balance between pleasure and pain that is right for you.

I'd also agree that it's something best taken on when in an already good, and generally non-destructive mood. I've had my fair share of depression in my life, and I can certainly testify that when "down", judgement isn't always as clear as it should be.

Hime:

"It's sort of like the difference between someone being overweight and happy that way, or someone being overweight because they can't break out of a cycle of eating and feeling guilty about it and eating more (not that I've ever done that or anything... ). It might look the same from the outside, but one person is in control of their life and one is not."

That's a very good analogy I think.

[TomOfSweden]

There's nothing at all wrong with masochism. But as I like to remind people, it's not (generally) the "pain olympics" about taking as much as possible. It's about finding the level of balance between pleasure and pain that is right for you.

Wisest words I've read in a long time. So simple yet profound. It can be aplied to many different things.

[cariad]

I have kept coming back to this thread, and I think the answer which works best for me is - is the pain being given because the pain giver likes the pain receiver, as in a lifestyle act; or does the pain giver dislikes the pain receiver, as in a depressive or abusive act.

Note that in both cases the pain giver and pain receiver can be the same person.

cariad