Safety - whose responsibility?

[cariad]

I have just come from an online chat in which we were discussing who is responsible for safety, particularly in a real life situation - is it the Dom/me, the sub, or is it a shared responsibility.

Is there a point at which the ownership of responsibility changes, if so when?

cariad

[dynamicbuttler]

I'm a newbie, but I'd say the obvious answer is both. When gagged or unable to speak, however, it's all the dom/me's responsibility. A good dominating partner has a soft spot for his or her sub, and I believe should know when things are out of hand. On the other hand, I've never heard of a sub who died because he/she could have said "Stop!" but didn't. They'll ask for it to end before it gets to serious, and there should be a safeword.

[Uncle_Ed]

An interesting question, my angel. I would put forward that it is a joint responsibilty as once in the throes of passion one is likely to overlook things-not maliciously but due to concentration being elsewhere! Clearly, should a sub be unable to clearly communicate then there is serious problem with the play as it should be understood that a signal must always be ready to be given if a potential limit is reached or a danger threatens.
A Dom/me must be acutely aware of his/her sub's state of mental, physical and spiritual wellbeing during times of limited communication as it is then the Dom/me's responsibilty to perceive the problem and act if the sub cannot do so in time.
A sub has a special responsibilty to be honest and unafraid to say no or point out a potential hazard.
It boils down to mutual trust and clear communication. The moment one feels that he/she should keep secrets and feels that the partner can be excluded from his/her confidence the problems begin.
The keys are and always have been trust and open communication.
Neither sub or Dom/me is above their counterpart, all are equal.
So-that's my opinion.

*hugs*

Ed.

[gagged_Louise]

Well, there have been some cases of death from asphyxiation sex - a considerably larger number than the well-known ones that have ended up in the news - and it's safe to say a few of those would have occurred during careless s/m playing (a plastic shopping bag tied over your head while you're bound can be lethal, especially if you're gagged and/or stoned too):

There was a murder case in Stockholm, Sweden a few years ago when a man had, it seems, agreed to be dommed by a girl of the light guard at his home. He had been handcuffed to a chair, taunted and "interogated". Then the game went out of hand. They had both been drinking hard before playing which is not great, and apparently (from neighbours testimonies and police reconstruction) the girl brought a carving knife into the play, stabbed him deep in the chest with it till he died and then robbed him of some money and started a fire to hide the facts (she claimed someone else had come in and killed him, while she tried to protect him, and then this guy had escaped - but agreed it was she who had handcuffed the man; her fingerprints were on the knife). A Stockholm dominatrix actually was called as expert witness at the trial.
The girl is now serving a life sentence for murder.

[TheDeSade]

I'm on the both bandwagon. I am of the opinion that no matter how well the two know each other, how attentive the Dom is to the situation or the level of experience, no Dom/me is ever able to know exactly what is going on with a sub totally. I have seen situations in which a scene went from being perfectly controlled and sensually satisfying to a situation that required drastic action within just a few seconds. A bad muscle cramp can be a serious problem depending on the situation and is almost impossible to see or detect by another person as an example. I always try to remind everyone that the whole intent is for everyone to enjoy themselves, to have an erotic good time and to be healthy and in relatively the same condition at the end as at the beginning. I think the concept of "total control exchange" is a dangerous concept that can lead the in-experienced into some really serious misconceptions.

[Guest 91108]

Uncle i agree it is both at all times.
TDS, i have had and seen such cramps for an example...
Things can need faster than anticipated reaction time.
Can lead to all sorts of problems.... is why i have been hesitant to go further in to more complex bondage at this time. sighs. but i'll get there........

I think it's all about the trust and deep communication.. if the two parties know each other and comfortable with their skills .. i think life has a way of working out from that point..... it's worked for me so far.

[MrDom]

Hi guys my 2 lash worth here.

It is mostly the Dominates reponsiblity for safety in the scence. But it is also the sub too. But if the sub is in a postion where she can not hand singal or speak her safe words it is the Dominate who must at all times be in control and watch for things that might be affecting her. If the Dominate ingore this resoponsiblity then he/she is not able or should be involed. Most people think it should be both and don't get me wrong it is but there is times the sub can not let the Dominate know what is happen so the Dominate is in charge and must watch and check the sub at all times.



MrDom

[TheDeSade]

I disagree. In a properly designed situation, the sub is always given a way to signal distress. I will agree that it is the dominants responsibility to design and manage the scene properly, and that includes making those provisions and plans.

[annie]

Well... since this isn't in the "Master's" only section i'm going to chime in.

From my perspective it is both parties responsibilities, although i do believe it is not an equally shared responsibility but more of a 70/30 (or so) split with the Dominate having more of the responsibility depending on what the scene entails.

It is my responsibility, as a sub, to ensure that limits, fears, etc. are expressed to my Dominate and more importantly expressed in a way that he understands. It is also my responsibility to ensure that i know the Dominate enough to be secure in his judgment and secure in the knowledge that he is not only in control of me and the scene but that he is able to control himself as well. It is my responsibility to tell him when something isn't working, be it a physical, emotional, or some other reason.

The amount of responsibility changes though when certain items, such as bondage, deprivation of some senses, etc. are used. It is my responsibility to ensure he understands me well enough that when he does tie me up tight and i can't communicate (as well) he can still read and understand me.

The amount of responsibility changes as well when sub space is hit. At that point, he has taken me to the point that my judgement is impared. Even if things were to go wrong it may be several moments or even minutes before it would/could register with me depending on what the problem is. Therefore at that point it is imparitive (almost a 100% in my mind) that he be responsible for the entire safety of the scene.

*grinz* not sure that makes complete sense... but i know what i'm talking about... lol!

[Ozme52]

Two different roles. It is the subs' role to warn, the dom/mes' to act on the warning.

I've always said the safeword is mostly for the dominant, so he/she can be assured all is still well and can reign freely over the submissive.

It is a co-owned responsibility to ensure all scenes allow for the successful use of a safe word or sign... and a prior discussion should have occurred to allow for contingencies when a sub enters sub-space.

[Uncle_Ed]

An important point I would like to add as cariad questioned me about my involvement with play and JD-did I think the two mixed?

During a scene (or play-whatever term you prefer) it is vital that each party is in control of themselves enough to have an appreciation of the other. So many times, accidents occur as one party was under the influence of some substance- drugs or alcohol and was consequently unable to perceive the danger.

And no. I don't mix a confused head with play.

[Daes]

Hmm I believe for an online session the sub has a greater responsibility to his/her own safety because the Dom cannot see firsthand what is going on on the sub's end. Theres no excuse here, dont be a dummy when playing around, especially if theres no one around to help or make suggestions.

In real time the responsibility is shared because the sub Must communicate his/her needs appropriately and the Dom Must be able to Read her body language and be careful Not to get carried away during a session. Or sometimes the sub is vulnerable, sometimes gagged, tied, inable to respond in a necessary way and the Dom is more obligated to know what he's doing in order not to harm the sub to the point of damaging him/her mentally. Be an adult. This isnt child's play :P

^_^

[slave327-834-200]

In a properly designed situation, the sub is always given a way to signal distress. I will agree that it is the dominants responsibility to design and manage the scene properly, and that includes making those provisions and plans.

I agree with you here, where the safe word cannot be spoken other signals must be discussed before hand. Something Master and I have used in the past is the holding of an object, a ball works well, in one hand which I am able to drop if in distress. This works well in situations where hand signals might not be seen as quickly as needed.
However, I would say that the responsibility is totally equal before play when discussing safety during the scene, i would never start a scene without knowing how i will be able to stop it if needed and its as much my responsibility to ask those questions before hand.
During a scene things do change and the Doms job, apart from the obvious, is to look for signs through-out. Master has explained to me the pressure, for want of a better word, of always being switched on and aware of everything happening and I understand how difficult than can be.
The sub also holds as much responsibility to be honest and to use safewords or signs when needed, never mind the worry of "disappointing" their Dom if they do so.

[caligirl{Rob}]

submission should be given with a clear mind and should only be accepted with the same...the real world is not a story and the consequences are far too real to ever, for a second lose sight of that...when Dom/sub lifestyle is taken to a public arena this common sense needs to be magnified 2000 percent, it takes but a second for the world of both to change forever

[Ruby]

Great points have been made here.

I, too, think the answer is both.

If a sub is known for taking a greater amount of pain in subspace, than the dom/me needs to be aware of this.

If there a limits like allergies or physical ailments, partners need to be aware of this also.

For example, someone with bad circulation doesn't need the tightest bondage available.

Someone recovering from an injury doesn't need to be flogged in that spot.

And for those "pain sluts" who don't know when to say no - I once met a man who enjoyed pain so much, he told me, "You could cut my arm off and I wouldn't care when I'm in subspace", - let's have those in the top role take some extra precautions and be aware of what they are doing.

Before, during and after play, how much responsiblity may be shifted with the power exchange, but I believe the total responsiblity is with both players to make a session/scene and its aftermath a success.

[Tasker]

*Flashes Learners Permit before climbing up onto the soapbox*

At this point in time I assume total responsibility for safety as we explore. This will continue to be my view for the foreseeable future.

My reasoning for this is as follows:

1. If it was my bright idea to start with, then the responsibility for childbrides safety is totally mine.

2. I am in control of the situation and make damned sure I stay that way. This doesn't make it less enjoyable for me by staying focused. If anything it enhances things for me by being fully aware of her reactions.

3. After being married for nineteen years I truly feel I have a good read on subtle body language signals and have found these can be read even while she is bound.

Having stated the above I must also mention that I have deliberately pushed her to the point of using her safe word to ensure she would use it. This came about after finding out from her in discussion that she felt she would be letting me down if she did safe out. After plenty of reassurance she got the point that her safety was paramount, but I still needed to be sure.

Whether things will change in the future is unknown, but to me the primary responsibility will always be mine.

And finaly.....I hope what I wrote made sense


*Falls off soapbox* ok who moved the step?

[master 327-834-200]

I agree with you here, where the safe word cannot be spoken other signals must be discussed before hand. Something Master and I have used in the past is the holding of an object, a ball works well, in one hand which I am able to drop if in distress. This works well in situations where hand signals might not be seen as quickly as needed.
However, I would say that the responsibility is totally equal before play when discussing safety during the scene, i would never start a scene without knowing how i will be able to stop it if needed and its as much my responsibility to ask those questions before hand.
During a scene things do change and the Doms job, apart from the obvious, is to look for signs through-out. Master has explained to me the pressure, for want of a better word, of always being switched on and aware of everything happening and I understand how difficult than can be.
The sub also holds as much responsibility to be honest and to use safewords or signs when needed, never mind the worry of "disappointing" their Dom if they do so.

Of course I whole heartedly agree with everything my slave has said here and would only add that no one is so experienced that they can see or predict every eventuality. For that reason alone safety is serious and should never been seen as a weakness in someones commitment or technique. Personally if I was with someone who didn't use a safeword I would not play.

[gagged_Louise]

It goes without much discussion that bondage play while either or both is on a strong drug-induced high is a no-no. Of course we all have our lines of bodily tolerance to drugs - I don't do the stuff at all, but wouldn't bash friends or other people for smoking joints or trying something other - but the idea to take on stuff which might cloud your powers of instant observation and drastically change how you respond in the play-out of the scenario (or cause vomiting into a tight gag, physical cramps etc) is a risk to anything sensible in bdsm.

I agree with master & slave 327-834-200 that you can't stash away your ability to break the scenario or change it if the bound/silenced sub is in danger.