Submission slavery and objectification

[Mobius]

I My be treading on an existing thread.

How about a thread on the differences between Submission Slavery and Objectification

Here is my definitions right or wrong

Submission you are a coessential partner equal in all status
willing and able to make a choise to consent or not to.

Slavery: You have no choice but to choose to be a slave or not.
But you are Human and can always walk away. There is no safe word.you have to endure what is placed before you. Unless you choose not to be a slave.


Objectification: your Property, a piece of meat, a sextoy nothing more.

right or wrong any input

[veru_skjava]

I often see these or similar concepts spoken about on the net.

Here is a "Readers Digest" version of how I see them.

A submissive is one that chooses to recognize their interior desire for a power exchange, there attitude, play and all other things are to the one they choose to submit to.

Certain aspects of a submissives life is not governed by their dominant.

A slave chooses to go deeper in the power exchange and is often considered the property of their dominant. How ever just like a submissive, a slave expects that the dominant is up to the responsibility of their control.

The dominant must protect any individual choosing to surrender to their control, and this MUST include safe words.

As a slave, I myself have agreed that how i dress, (or don't dress as the case may be) and what I do and don't do is always either with the direct consent, command or order of my dominant, or is within the set rules. Failure to do this is cause for release. There is no negotiation, no discussion of the rules, they were layed out at the beginning, will be restated often and that as they say is that!

Objectification, is something that I personally see as a depth of additional "play" within either of the above catagories. As such, I have not really read or expereinced first hand, there fore have choosen not to address this as a thrid state.

The choice to be a slave, imo, develops to the individuals within a D/s relationship. I am a submissive by nature, yet slave to the one that owns me. He is the final word, he controls, i obey!

There are as many different ideas, and none of them wrong or right as there are individuals, for the dub vs slave aspect of D/s.

Learning the concepts each other has of these, discussing the similarities and the differences is essential.

Unlike slavery of old, where society knew the same rules and standards applied, we are talking about power exchange.

An exchange between two consenting adults, who have intrinsic rights and values.

ANY time safing out is removed, we no longer have responsible D/s or BDSM, we have the making for brutality and abuse.

*sighs* I must run, will try to expand on this if need be later.

veru skjava

[BDSM_Tourguide]

There is no such thing as non-consentual BDSM. The proper name for that is abuse.

Even in the severest of cases, consent is always there, even if you are just a piece of property and a fucktoy.

[write4jetc]

I agree. If you agree to give all control of you and your life over to someone else (your dom), and you consent to be their slave, you have still agreed to those rules. There are alot of people out there, IMHO, that treat their dogs better than they treal their 'slaves'. Although they may think they can do whatever they like, it is still perfectly possible for the slave to stand up, and walk away.

Some doms seem to believe that the space they take up in the world is more important than the space other people take up; it infuriates me!

<getting off my soap box now. Sylvie, where are you? I'm having a bad day ... I need distracting!>

[BDSM_Tourguide]

Originally posted by write4jetc
I agree. If you agree to give all control of you and your life over to someone else (your dom), and you consent to be their slave, you have still agreed to those rules. There are alot of people out there, IMHO, that treat their dogs better than they treal their 'slaves'. Although they may think they can do whatever they like, it is still perfectly possible for the slave to stand up, and walk away.

Yes, that's true, but they usually don't. Why? Because MOST submissives/slaves are from abusive pasts and they fear if they are not completely compliant, then their dominant will leave them. And to them that's far worse than any abuse they could have meted out to them.

Some doms seem to believe that the space they take up in the world is more important than the space other people take up; it infuriates me!

I know way too many people like that, mostly online. Seems that a computer and a chat room makes a lot of people bolder, braver and more egotistical than they normally would be. People still don't get that just being yourself, even if you are a pathetic, sniveling wimp, is better than being something you're not. Because, eventually you're going to meet someone and then the truth is going to come out anyway.

<getting off my soap box now. Sylvie, where are you? I'm having a bad day ... I need distracting!>

Yay! Another rant. I'm getting good at this.

[Venus]

I found that VLMarquette describes very well domination/submission in the "Dark Love" series. And yes it is about vampires and about a world that is not possible, but ultimately I liked the description. Of course when reading stories I like the non-consensual stuff too, but I will have to agree that BDSM has to be consentual to some extent. Saying that BDSM can be non-consentual is just like saying that making love to someone can be forced. One can have sex with someone without consent that is called rape, but it is impossible to make love without both parties participating. To me it is the same with BDSM, one can force another to take pain or to do things, but that is just abuse, one cannot force another to participate in BDSM. BDSM is a lifestyle which means it is a choice that each makes.

Just my opinion

[AmandasSpankee]

I think you're misreading it, but maybe I am. I think Venus is saying that non-consentual bdsm is abuse, the same way non-con sex is rape.

That is the truth of it for me; and maybe a lot of other subs. Many subs are subs from choice, from recognizing something inside them that wants to be submissive, at least part of the time.
Same thing with us pain lovers, I think. I choose to be 'punished' in ways that hurt me; I love the feelings that pour through me. But, if someone hurt me without permission, it would not feel wonderful, it would be abuse and/or violence.
In fact, as I have found out, a spanking from Mistress is a wonderful thing, punishment is awful - it hurts like hell!

[BDSM_Tourguide]

A spanking and punishment can be two very differentt hings. Just ask my wifey-poo. *Snicker*

[Venus]

AmandasSpankee is right, that is exactly what I mean.

sorry if I wasn't clear, I didn't sleep for about 48 hours at the time i wrote that post.

[write4jetc]

Oh? Anything interesting keep you awake?

[Finding_Fantasy]

...and get a hundred different answers.

Now, how can I say this without offending someone's finer sesibilities? Well, here goes. I can't really say that there really is such thing as a slave, at least not in a consensual way. Now, don't get excited, this is just my opinion. I mean, going to the origanal meaning of the word, a slave is a oerson who is forced into servitude. However, let's not get into semantics.

I guess what I am basically saying is that, in my opinion, a slave as we call him/her, is just a submissive. Now granted, that submissive has commited themselves far more than a submissive who just calls themself a submissive (not that I am saying submissives are not dedicated) A slave is just a submissive who has chosen to submit deeper and to a fuller extent. They are still a submissive. Why? Because they chose their position. It wasn't forced on them.

Don't get me wrong, I am not knocking those of you who have the title slave but I could never have it used withme because I would never be a slave by the true meaning of the word. *shrugs* But that is just my opinion.

Now what I mean by ask a hundred different people and get a hundred different answers...well I have seen too many views on the matter to really be sure what it is all about myself. I read one guys opinion on his web page saying that "submissives play at the lifestyle, slaves live it." Well that one kind of got under my skin a bit. But I also know a couple who see it as the salve is allowed no personal items. Everything she owned before the relationship becomes forfit to him. He also makes her perform online using a web cam for money and she has even been put into an adult film (though she didn't seem to mind) He even made her get a boob job. Sorry, but I were her, I wouldn't have stayed. That's my personal preference mind you. I just don't think that I could handle being forced to have a boob job or whatever.

And I know yet another couple who have gone to the extent of branding. I would say "Hell no! Get that DAMNED thing away from me!" Just the thought of it makes me shudder and wonder. But then again, it's what makes them happy so I will not knock it or berate it. The bottom line is I don't care if you use the title slave, you can call yourself Praxion from the planet Ziffania for all I care. (though if you did I might worry a little bit) This is just my simple, humble opinion.

[write4jetc]

And an excellant opinion it is!

I, too, can't quite understand the term 'slave' in a D/s relationship, as opposed to a 'submissive'. I mean I can; oh,geez, I don't seem to have a grasp of the english language today <sigh>. Let's try this again.

I agree that the terms sub and slave, to me, are a matter of degree. I can see the submissive part, even though I have a hard time understanding it; but then again, I have a hard time understanding 'shy', too - it's just not in my nature.

I have a much harder time understanding the slave concept; I find it a degrading and demeaning term, in it's historical sense. That is, a slave was owned body and soul, had no separate life, owned nothing, could be bought and sold, and was forced into the slavery, often by being kidnapped from their own land, and taken far away from home. To me, giving yourself over to someone to be a slave to him/her is fundamentally opposite the definition of slavery.

I used to believe that it was just a term people used to describe a d/s relationship, but it has become apparent to me that it goes far beyond that; many of these people really do consider the slave as an owned piece of property. Amazing; we have a whole nation of people who worked for 100's of years to free themselves from slavery, only to have a new batch of people go into it voluntarily!

Oh well, obviously we have to allow people the right to do whatever they please with their lives; I just wish I could be sure that some of the ... um ... more opressed slaves were doing this for the right reasons, and not just because they feel they don't deserve anything better.

I'm putting away my soap box now ...

[Finding_Fantasy]

I find that amazing. I get told by quite a large number of people who believe in slaves that I am flat out wrong. They can't see if my opinion has any merit. They just see "there is no such thing as a slave" and they bristle and snarl. *shrugs* It's my opinion, and I'm sticking to it.

[write4jetc]

well, I've read a lot of stories were some 'sweet young thing' gets kidnapped and initiated into the bdsm world as a slave and loves it so much she stays. PUCK! Even if it does happen, she agreed to stay and act the part of slave. It's still free will.
I think there may be a lot of slaves who are so submissive that they need someone to take over every aspect of their lives. Some of them seem to feel that any attention is better than none. They may be the product of abuse, incest, any number of things. Much as I'd like to, I can't get help to everyone I think needs it, so they will continue to take what they get. However, it is also possible that they don't see any way out, and are not strong enough to walk away. There are lots of places to find help, if they want it.

Well, that's a confusing paragraph, even to me, and I wrote it! That's me, always seeing both sides of everything! I think that sometimes (mentally) strong people don't understand the weakwilled people; I don't understand how anyone can willingly become a slave. On the other hand, I suffer from depression, and some people can't understand that; they say 'oh, cheer up! don't be sad' as if I have a choice in the matter! I believe that sometimes the paralysing uncertainty of slaves makes it impossible for them to stand up and walk away.

Now, other people love pain. Again, I don't understand it, but I know that it is real, so I grant them the right to make their own decisions. I guess that's my bottom line here - people have the right to make their own decisions. If they know themselves well enough, any decision they make can be put into practice. If they want to be a slave, fine. If they don't, they can walk away, especially when there are so many agencies out there who can help them.

Sigh. I'm stepping off that soap box again, and going back to work. I'm trying to get Sylvie to make up a good business reason for going out to Banff

[Finding_Fantasy]

Coming from an abusive relationship, I know how hard it is to leave. It's different for every person, I think.

For me, it was too things. One was shame for having let myself get into that situation after my family warned me about the signs. (my father came from an abusive home) He made me promise that I would never get into that sort of trouble. But I did and I felt horrid for it.

The second thought was "Well, what if nobody else wants me?" and so forth. I had a low self esteem before I met him and it only got worse after that. I am getting better now though.

It was hard for me to get into the bdsm life after that. I mean, I knew of my inclinations towards it before I got involved with that guy, but later, when I came across the opportunity i couldn't help but think "Well maybe it's not for me because I don't like getting beaten up."

Perhaps if this hadn't all happened, I may have become more of a pain slut. I used to have a high tolerence for pain but since then, I get scared of it, I guess. Perhaps I am worried, somewhere deep in myself, that if I allow too much pain to be inflicted on me, that that person will not stop when I need them to. I can't really say. I trust my Master, there is just some left over damage to me mentally.

This is probably why I don't "believe" in slaves because I could never allow someone to have that much control over me again. It took me a while to find out who I was again and I don't want that taken away. I know that sounds silly, but that is just the way human brains and hearts work sometimes.

As for the trip to Banff...*lol* You should make it Jasper instead. It's only 45 minutes from us.

[write4jetc]

<<Perhaps I am worried, somewhere deep in myself, that if I allow too much pain to be inflicted on me, that that person will not stop when I need them to.>>

I can understand this, but in the opposite way. I think I was reluctant to inflict pain on anyone in case I got carried away and couldn't stop. However, after all this time, I think I am ready to believe that I won't 'snap', and really hurt someone. Although if I am angry (rarely), I will not punish her then, I have to walk away and come back later.

I'm not having too much luck with the Banff idea; seems no-one really wants to go there in the winter. A lot of her work is at sales conferences; you know, when a company takes a group of it's top salesmen somewhere nice, and rewards them for a job well done, and gets them motivated to do even better next year! With the Cdn $ being so terrible against the US $, more companies are doing this at home, but not so much in the winter. But I'll keep trying - just for Jasper instead!

[BDSM_Tourguide]

Originally posted by write4jetc
[BAlthough if I am angry (rarely), I will not punish her then, I have to walk away and come back later.[/B]

That's when you tell them to go stand in the corner until you can decide how to punish them. Gives them something to think about while you cool off, gives you something to look at as you think of ways to be really evil.

[Ezzrai]

Hi, i am new to BDSM and sub lifestyle...so new i start my training Friday, but have spent months reading and exploring a lot.

Write4jetc...you wrote

I think there may be a lot of slaves who are so submissive that they need someone to take over every aspect of their lives. Some of them seem to feel that any attention is better than none. They may be the product of abuse, incest, any number of things. Much as I'd like to, I can't get help to everyone I think needs it, so they will continue to take what they get. However, it is also possible that they don't see any way out, and are not strong enough to walk away. There are lots of places to find help, if they want it.


and i think it could very well be true, i grew up in very abusive situations....along with rape and incest included. I took a break from like for 6 years and went into therapy, and this is how i find myself now. More open minded....looking for domination, actually desiring it so strongly i couldnt deny it. I know the difference now, but instead of feeling fear, it is replaced by excitement...why? I think because in uncontroled situations and cold and uncaring situations....many of us survivied and are a lot stronger for it, and now, it is in a controled situation with trust, love and many more...it is what we have known, and how we have grown up to be, it is our life as we know how to live it.

just one opinion and some of what and why i desire this. I am still questioning myself and searching within me for answers. Maybe i will know someday, maybe not

[Finding_Fantasy]

To both the BDSM Library and to the lifestyle.

I am gald that you have been able to see your way through the abuse. I know it's tough.

One misconception, however, is that ALL submissives have been abused and that is why they are submissives. Well, I know this is not true. I knew of my desires when I was 16, long before I became a victim of abuse. Though, I do agree, you do tend to find a lot of submissives who have been abused in some way in their lives.

[BDSM_Tourguide]

Originally posted by Finding_Fantasy
To both the BDSM Library and to the lifestyle.

I am gald that you have been able to see your way through the abuse. I know it's tough.

One misconception, however, is that ALL submissives have been abused and that is why they are submissives. Well, I know this is not true. I knew of my desires when I was 16, long before I became a victim of abuse. Though, I do agree, you do tend to find a lot of submissives who have been abused in some way in their lives.

It isn't so much of a causal thing as it is a simple matter of statistics.

I have spoken to many submissives about this and yes most of them have been abused in one way or another. However, I don't believe they found the bdsm lifestyle because of the abuse. More likely, they always had the longings and just happened to be abused.

Besides, I'm not exactly sure what the appeal of being spanked and humiliated would be to a person with an abusive past. Unless a "violent" relationship is more comfortable for them. Or perhaps people who have been abused seek someone physically dominating. Who knows?

[Ezzrai]

Hi all, thanks for the welcome.
I am not sure it is the spankings and humiliation that i greet and desire, (i am sure i will be finding out soon ) but definately the domination and trust. Being abused makes it difficult to trust, esp repeated, extended, or severe abuse. A person also finds themselves exerting and maintaining strong emotional and physical control over themselves that after a while, they cannot let go of. It is habitual. Being dominated...there is trust there that you are safe and can learn to let go. Actually, there is no choice *smiles*. The spankings/punishment only reinforce submitting. I do remember when i was 20 and reading some books, i would definately be intrigued by sensory deprivement, under control of a man, and being helpless in bondage, although not excrutiating bondage as i have seen at some sites. I dont have all my answers, but some understanding. What i do know, is after months of talking to this master, our interview, researching, and finally agreeing to be trained, it is what i strongly desire, what i have dreamt about, and am have never been happy, although i am sure there are going to be times i wish i wasnt *smiles*.
Time to start the day, I must go.
chat later.

[LadyAmanda]

I think too, it may depend on when the abuse started. Do you think that people who were abused when they were older - like past their teens - were submissive to begin with, but didn't know the term?
Is it possible that they accepted the abuse rather than walk away because they wanted to be submissive?

I'm not suggesting here, I am just asking. I know that I was brought up to believe that I can do/be anything I want, I have no limits; did that help form me into a domme?

I can understand an former-abused person wanting a dom/me; I think the all encompassing, all embracing aspect of that would be very comforting. Having someone totally committed to looking after you? Yep, I can understand that.

It's when a former-abused person becomes a 'slave' that I have a problem. Well, okay, I admit it - I have a problem with anyone becoming a 'slave', and being treated like a possesion, but that topic has been covered elsewhere!

[Ezzrai]

LadyAmanda
i was abused from very young childhood until the end of my marriage, after which i sought proffessional help and have been for the last 7 years alone. During our interview, my Master held me at a very open and vulnerable spot seeming eternity, then enveloped me in his arms and held me there safe. It was the most precious and beautiful feeling in the world i had ever felt. He did not betray my trust, he did not harm me, but only suceeded in reaffirming more trust, and strengthen my desire to commit and make him happy.

During one of our discussions, i said to him "soon all my defenses will be gone and i will be vulnerable!" He replied back "defenses? you need none against me, it is I who will be defending you, and look at being vulnerable as an exchange of trust between us"

[LadyAmanda]

He sounds like a very wise man; I hope he lives up to all your expectations - or as many as are humanly possible

I, too, believe that a dom has a very strong responsibility to look after their sub. The sub has made themselves very open to the dom, and it is imperative that the dom sees it that way too. The dom's role is to encourage the sub to be all that they can be; letting them grow through encouragement and trust and faith in their abilities.

It sounds like you are going to have a wonderful, protected life - congratulations!

[BDSM_Tourguide]

Originally posted by Ezzrai
LadyAmanda
i was abused from very young childhood until the end of my marriage, after which i sought proffessional help and have been for the last 7 years alone. During our interview, my Master held me at a very open and vulnerable spot seeming eternity, then enveloped me in his arms and held me there safe. It was the most precious and beautiful feeling in the world i had ever felt. He did not betray my trust, he did not harm me, but only suceeded in reaffirming more trust, and strengthen my desire to commit and make him happy.

During one of our discussions, i said to him "soon all my defenses will be gone and i will be vulnerable!" He replied back "defenses? you need none against me, it is I who will be defending you, and look at being vulnerable as an exchange of trust between us"

Defending you? Against what? Do you both live in a bad neighborhood?

I am very happy that you trust your master, as you should. I'm also very happy that you have a desire to commit to him, as you should, and to make him happy, again as you should. However, were any of these things missing from your relationship, I would hope you would not be involved in it in the first place.

I wrote an article for this forum a couple of months ago. You might want to have a look at it, as it puts a lot of things into perspective for a lot of bdsm newbies.

http://www.bdsmlibrary.com/forums/sh...=&threadid=119

Maybe have a look at it and see what you think.

It is a bit refreshing to see someone with such a fresh and unclouded view of bdsm. It doesn't happen too often. Just don't mistake things that should be present in your relationship for things that are special.

[Finding_Fantasy]

It's strange. I have never been really submissive towards many people. I have been taught to stand up for myself and what I believe in, and I do. But here's the thing. I hate making choices. Just ask my Master there.

I mean, how many time have you asked me, Master. "What do you want to do tonight?" or "Where would you like to go and eat?" Don't I usually say "I don't know. What about you?" I guess I would just rather have choics made for me mostly.

Don't get me wrong, I am damned good at being an authority figure. I can give orders, deligate responsibility, and am always resonsible for training new hires no matter what job I am in. That doesn't mean I have to like it.

I guess you could say I was abused when I was a kid, though not by my family. It was by other kids. I hit puberty in the 4th grade and was wearing a full bra by the end of the 4th. I got teased, beaten up, ridculed, dragged won hallways by my hair. You name it. But I always fought back because it wasn't "consensual" Not that a 4th grader knows what that means.

However, before I was truly abused, I had a want of being submissive. Why? Because of what I stated above. I would rather have someone else make the choices. I find it "easier" Maybe that is a lazy way of looking at it, but I only submitt to one person, and that is my Master. If he wants me to be trained by another, I will comply IF I have respect for that person. My willingness to submitt has nothing to do with my abuse

I have decided though to attach a file called My Introduction. It is a true account of how I discovered BDSM and the abuse I went through etc...

A warning though, it isn't a pretty, happy happy, joyful story. Just maybe it will give a different perspective on how I can still be a submissive after being abused.

[Ezzrai]

Defending you? Against what? Do you both live in a bad neighborhood?


From myself more i would say. i am very self destructive when it comes to relationships/friendships and its habitual that i allow no one to get close. Here is a poem i wrote a couple years ago


Enigma
by Tenika

I am an enigma, it is my defense.
I speak in riddles, I mean no offense.
Deflecting with confusion should you lean too close,
then puns and laughter wrapping you in droves
of heightened awareness, carnal and tense,
erecting connections, aye my barbed wired fence.

I may yearn. Oh god I can dream!
Yet only allowing sparing glimpses to be seen.
It is my way now, habitual as breath
and sadly will be...perserverance ’til death.
So hold my hand, that at least i may feel
supple softness from this rigid steel.

and i can almost assuredly say...no one has seen what is inside my mind unless i let them have glimpses....very few. As for my soul..only those who care to look and He did....my defenses are my barb wired fences...trying to keep Him at bay and not submitting from fear. By saying He would be defending me, to my belief is another way of Him saying he will only promise not to harm me or betray my fragile trust in Him, to let it flourish and continue on in our journey.

Finding_Fantasy..it must have taken courage to write that and post it for people to see. i dont think i could ever do anything like that, the things i have seen and experienced...lol it would turn most people away. in any event, may i ask...does it still haunt you...even if in your dreams, subconsciousness?

abuse and terror, violation of any sense or reason, mental or physical strips a person of any sense or humanity, yet they still stand and survive and grow...maybe even more beautiful than they were beforehand.

*sighs* i talk and think too much.

i will shush now

[BDSM_Tourguide]

... I would definitely suggest professional help. It is unlikely that someone that is afraid of themself can form a healthy relationship. I look in the mirror too often and wonder if I'm doing well with that myself.

I don't see the need to "defend" or "protect" my submissive. I don't have anything to defend or protect her against. As far as our relationship is concerned, we trust each other, care for each other and try to communicate with each other about things as well as we can.

You are still a person, first and foremost, and a submissive second. If you cannot take care of yourself, then you probably aren't going to be satisfied with someone that takes care of you for you. If you are, it might be for the wrong reasons.

Too frequently submissives come from abusive relationships, families or previous marriages. Most submissives suffer from low self-esteem. Most submissives suffer from a persecution complex. In other words, they are used to being abused, rather than cared for, they don't think much of themselves, so they don't see how anyone else can either, and they feel like they have to be belittled and degraded to feel what they think is love. It's just because of the patterns in their lives and how they respond emotionally to different sets of circumstances and situations.

Sorry for the rant. I don't mean to lecture you. I am happy you have a happy relationship. I just like to make sure that when I see words used like "defenses" and "self-destructive" that the person really does know what they're doing.

[Ezzrai]

Sorry for the rant. I don't mean to lecture you. I am happy you have a happy relationship. I just like to make sure that when I see words used like "defenses" and "self-destructive" that the person really does know what they're doing.

i dont see it as a rant, but more as concern, and thank you. I have already had professional help for many years, and am now just stepping out fresh...taking my first step with trust/ a relationship/ letting someone know ect

self destructive in relationships and defenses were my way to push people away, now it is time to walk in the other direction....tentatively. My life has reached a fork where it is time to take another route and i hope for the better. These last almost 7 years alone, were a way for me to build myself and my self esteem/independance up, take in all i have learned through therapy, meditate, and decide. I am not looking for someone to Dominate me...to take care of me, or assure my safety, only i can do that, but honestly it is more the mystic, the challenge of His intellect and mine, the fact i grew up submissive and miss a part of it (although i didnt know D/s existed until a few months ago) and for some reason, the thrill of wanting to submit to Him...not just anyone, but Him. The fact He happens to be the first to experience with me, and for me to experience some facets many have experienced since childhood, or through first love ect just makes the moment more precious.

[BDSM_Tourguide]

I have seen a lot of relationships ruined by people that either weren't ready, had no idea what they were getting themselves into or thought that the bdsm relationship would be all roses and perfection with very little work.

If you didn't read that article, I do recommend scrolling up and having a look at it. I wrote a couple of more awhile back. They're still around somewhere, probably on page two of this forum.

Anyway, have fun! Talk to you later.