Abortion

[Alex Bragi]

Hello niyah2,

That's a good response, on all subjects raised on this thread, and certainly much to think about and consider.

And, since I see that it's your first posting, welcome to the family/fourm.

Alex.

[drake7]

Alex, I see things that are offensive to me in stories as well. I realize, as I am sure you do, that each of us has a different view on what is or isn't "over the line."

For some the abortion topic may be exciting. I didn't find it particularly offensive or exciting either one- I did find it very unrealistic however.

My best advice, even on those topics that seem very controversial, is just to skip over it and go on to something more interesting. The atmosphere here on the site is one that encourages freedom of expression and I would hate to think someone was discouraged because of a post here denigrating their particular form of kink.

Drake.

[Morrighan]

I'm amazed that the discussion has managed to remain civilized thus far. The topic of abortion pushes people's buttons in a way that few others do--specifically because it is a question of life and death, and the death of a complete innocent.

I'll chime in with most of the others on the side of freedom of speech, to say if you don't like it, don't read it. I do, however, think that abortion is not snuff, and should be identified as such. To have it spring out at you in something you are reading is a little disquieting.

And something to add--someone mentioned that Stephen King has used abortion in his novels, and I have to say that it's all in how that subject matter is handled. Stephen King makes it a horrible thing, a tool of terror, at least in every book of his I've ever read. This use was different, and if it was intended to be funny...well, it takes a talent above and beyond almost any I can imagine to make the death of an unborn child in any way humorous.

I'm trying very hard not to come down too judgemental. I haven't read the work, and I won't. I will just say that there should be something in either the story codes or the story summary to warn people browsing through the forums. Regardless of when you believe life starts, just as the author has the right to say what he'she likes, the reader has the option to choose what they read.

Morrighan

[castle2001]

Sorry for the delay. This thread seems to go on forever. I guess the battle will go on forever as well.

A pre-viability fetus is not a child, not a person, it's a part of the host organism and removing one is morally no different than removing tonsils or an appendix. Post-viability the situation becomes different. I have no idea which was the case in lex's story.

Not an apt Simile.Tonsils and the appendix are removed only when infected.
Viablilty is now down to the fifth month. Puts the sqweeze on the pro abortion crowd.

[Morrighan]

Curtis, everyone has different beliefs on when "life" starts. My personal opinion is that until we come up with some instrument that measures the "soul" entering the child, then we should err on the side of life. Whether you call it "soul" or "spirit" or whatever else, if you believe that there is some part of you that continues after the body dies, then you should be opposed to abortion. Other than that, the line is too thin. I really believe strongly that abortion is wrong, and it's murder, but the whole argument is based on unprovable beliefs on both sides, which is why there can be no compromise and no argument that will persuade either side. The arguments aren't based on fact; they're based on convenience and religion, which are not quantifiable arguments. You take a lot of both on faith and personal beliefs. Please, let's just leave this lie. The line is straight down the middle and nothing I can say or you can say will change anyone's mind.

Morrighan

[fetish101]

In addition, the pimps provide a needed service. Prostitutes do not have recourse to help from the police because prostitution is illegal. If they have trouble with customers not paying or assaulting them, the pimp is their only option. The solution to this is to legalize prostitution.

Bill

No..my whole argument was not how to make the hooking profession more equitable for the workers..it was more about how to get rid of it. There are girls who are not drug users and simply enjoy the line of work as a sex worker, although I doubt there's very many in it other than their circumstances force them. Prostitution should be illegal, because it spreads STD's. Usually, when FORCED prostitution comes into play, it's because some pimp has got his girlfriend hooked on a drug, then forced her to start pimping to pay for her addiction. Either that, or the women, for one reason or another, are unemployable and must resort to prostitution to pay the bills (but I would argue that more often than not the "bills" are really some sort of addiction, be it drugs or alchohol). Women/Men like that do not deserve a free ticket to continue the downward spiral, then need to be institutionalized. Get them off the street, give them hard core kick in the ass and cut off the controlled substance supply. Perhaps give them some sort of training..a high school diploma would probably be a good start (most probably don't even have that). Then, once they are cleaned up, move them to half way homes on the condition that they find gainfull employment (there will be state/province run programs for this) to get experience. If they fail to tow the line there, then they should be sent back for more "attitude adjustment". Some of you will inevitable say this is way to hardline of an approach, and most of this is goes against their rights. Well, fuck that. These people have fucked up. They're poster children for everything that's fucked up about society. They're the people that make that "seedy neighborhood" seedy!!

Now, onto abortion. It's a shitty fact of life that the woman gets stuck getting pregnant and having the child. In a perfect world, there would be serious consequences (other than monetary) for the man too! But, alas, there isn't. Too often the woman, by default, gets stuck with this child and the man buggers off never to be heard from. Is it fair that just because of physiological reasons the women should be stuck with this burden? No! As long as the fetus is part of the woman's body, she should have free reign as to what to do with it. I know, some of you will come back and say "so you're equating a fetus to an ingrown hair?"...and essentially water it down enough and yeah, that's what I'm saying. It is part of the woman's body. If she doesn't want it, it should absolutely be her right to have an abortion.

[Morrighan]

As I said above...I will probably be in the minority on this site, but the woman has some culpability too in the creation of child. If you don't want to get pregnant, don't indiscriminately f*** around. Cases of rape and incest...please, please, PLEASE can't we just leave this one alone. Someone will seriously offend someone else if this continues, and no one will ever be swayed in their belief by anything anyone else says here. All we're going to do is make each other angry. Viewing the "fetus" as a part of the body no different from the tonsils or the appendix sickens me. It's a child, it's a child, it's a child. It's an innocent life with no control over what happens to him or her or how he or she was concieved. All life is precious. I believe this, you believe otherwise. Can you not see that neither of us are likely to change in this belief? Let it alone.

Morrighan

[fetish101]

As I said above...I will probably be in the minority on this site, but the woman has some culpability too in the creation of child. If you don't want to get pregnant, don't indiscriminately f*** around. Cases of rape and incest...please, please, PLEASE can't we just leave this one alone. Someone will seriously offend someone else if this continues, and no one will ever be swayed in their belief by anything anyone else says here. All we're going to do is make each other angry. Viewing the "fetus" as a part of the body no different from the tonsils or the appendix sickens me. It's a child, it's a child, it's a child. It's an innocent life with no control over what happens to him or her or how he or she was concieved. All life is precious. I believe this, you believe otherwise. Can you not see that neither of us are likely to change in this belief? Let it alone.

Morrighan

Well, I've said my bit about the whole thing, but not talking about a topic simply because it's somewhat of a loaded one and will step on other's morals and "make each other angry" is ridiculous. Why can't people talk about it? You believing that “a child is a child is a child” doesn't offend me, even if I disagree in this one special circumstance. Simply saying, "I don't want to hear anymore discussion on this because it offends me" is out of line in my opinion. This is a public forum, furthermore it's not your public forum, so as long as people adhere to the holy CoC discussion like this should be allowed. If you don't like the topic anymore, feel free to not open the thread.

[Morrighan]

Far be it for me to try to close down a debate if people want to keep debating. "I think the fetus is a part of a woman's body." "I think it's a child." There's little left to debate there. But you're right, Fetish; you all can keep debating if you like. Based on what happened to the thread about smoking, I figured the debate would be even more vicious here. Either way, Morrighan gracefully bows out. Adding that she does enjoy your posts and opinions, even when she doesn't agree with them.

Morrighan

[fetish101]

Far be it for me to try to close down a debate if people want to keep debating. "I think the fetus is a part of a woman's body." "I think it's a child." There's little left to debate there. But you're right, Fetish; you all can keep debating if you like. Based on what happened to the thread about smoking, I figured the debate would be even more vicious here. Either way, Morrighan gracefully bows out. Adding that she does enjoy your posts and opinions, even when she doesn't agree with them.

Morrighan

To that I say thank you. I also enjoy your input and opinions, it makes for good discussions which is the reason I come to this site (not so much for the bdsm aspect..I just like the community here). I meant no offense, just stating my take on things. I agree, with the statements "I think the fetus is a part of a woman's body." "I think it's a child." it is pointless to argue. You never know though, someone may come up with something you never thought of, so it's beneficial to keep the topic open.

[Curtis]

Whether you call it "soul" or "spirit" or whatever else, if you believe that there is some part of you that continues after the body dies, then you should be opposed to abortion. Other than that, the line is too thin.Morrighan

I don't believe that some part of you continues after the body dies. I do believe that the line is very thin.

castle2001: "Not an apt simile. Tonsils and the appendix are removed only when infected." -- That's a good point. Let me try a different simile then. If I can ever get the money together ("fat" chance), I'm going to have liposuction. Morally, I see no difference between me getting five pounds of fat sucked out and a woman getting a 16 week fetus sucked out.

I believe that abortion is the stupidest method of birth control, just as liposuction is the stupidest method of figure control, but I also believe that AS LONG AS THE FETUS IS PRE-VIABILITY, fetish101 is right that it's part of the woman and no one should be able to tell her what she can do with it. Once it's far enough along to survive outside its host, it should have rights of its own, and a legal standing/advocate.

I'm going to thank drake7 for digging out this dead thread and Morrighan for re-aligning it along the deviant path of abortion rights. ("deviant" as in it deviated from Alex's original theme of whether abortion is proper material for stories in the Library.) It'd been so long that I had forgotten that this WASN'T a similar thread that I began at the same time, which WAS on the topic of abortion rights. I'm not sure how prostitution entered into it. Anyway, I apologize to Alex for being the one who, apparently, initiated the hijacking of this thread.

[Morrighan]

I didn't want to do this. I was going to let it alone. I had, I swear to you, forgotten about our earlier discussion and was off debating politics in another forum. And oddly enough, we got on the abortion argument there is well. So I have a dare for you who say that a 'fetus' is nothing more than a tonsil, an appendix, an ingrown hair. That think that a sixteen-week old fetus is the equivalent of five pounds of fat.

I was going to leave this alone, because in my mind, as much as I enjoy the variety of topics posted here, this wasn't a subject fit (for me) to discuss in these forums. But I saw this and I CAN'T leave it alone. It made me, literally, sick. So this is my dare: follow the links below. Look at these pictures, which are validated by a pathologist's report. Look at these pictures, and come back and tell me again what you just told me. I am sorry, I swear to you. I don't want to come off as a right wing lunatic, but...anyway. Look at them, really look at them. Look at the difference between eleven weeks and look at twenty weeks. The links are below. Follow them, and if your opinion remains unchanged, I have nothing left to say.

http://www.priestsforlife.org/resour...s/archive1.htm
http://www.priestsforlife.org/resour...rted/index.htm


Morrighan

[Curtis]

Well, I looked through archive 1. What was your point?

[fetish101]

Well, I looked through archive 1. What was your point?

Well, her point was to change your opinion.

It didn't change mine. Yes, those aborted fetus' did have hands, feet, heads, eyes etc..but this is not something that I hadn't taken into consideration. I've been to Rotten.com before. Those images did not give me a warm fuzzy feeling inside by any means, but they do not persuade me that women shouldn't have the right to an abortion.

The priests for life can pose the little things any way they like, I still believe firmly that they were not sentient beings worthy of personal rights.

[Curtis]

They certainly were nothing new. Life magazine did a photo series on fetal development around 1970; we studied it in Biology in high school in the mid-70s; and Time (and I think National Geographic) have done photo essays on the subject in the past two years. I agree with you that it's irrelevant -- they're meant to shock, not inform -- but they really aren't shocking. If anything, I'd say they support my position. The 11 week images are just masses of undifferentiated tissue. They could be frogs or anything; they're certainly not human.

fetish, you've brought up another issue, which drifts even farther off-topic: What rights do non-sentient beings have? I don't believe the Bible is the word of God, so I don't believe that man was given dominion over the beasts. I believe that we're care-takers for the planet and that we have responsibilities toward the less-intelligent creatures, but not rights over them.

That doesn't mean we can't eat meat. Humans are omnivorous, and I, in particular, am carnivorous. It does mean we shouldn't mistreat our meat animals...or our pets.

[GaryWilcox]

I wonder how many people in this thread have actually been through an abortion.

I have. Or, my ex wife has, with what would have been our child, while I sat in the waiting room.

It was a decision we made together. I think that there are valid reasons to terminate unwanted pregnancies, but when I look back on our's, I know that we were just scared of what it would do to us, and the kind of parents we would be.

Letting go of all of the crap surrounding the shape of the fetus... the simple truth is, it was a part of me in her, growing into a seperate life, and we killed it because we were afraid we'd be bad parents.

I don't want to protest abortion clinics. I just feel like people should be informed before they go to an abortion clinic or terminate their pregnancy with some herbal cure that they should consider that this kind of decision wil haunt them for the rest of their lives.

It's irreversible. Having another child is not the child you aborted; it can never be undone.

[Curtis]

(Hmm. 500th post)

That sounds like a good reason to me. A lot of women have multiple abortions, so I'm guessing they weren't too haunted by the experience. I expect that sort of thing varies from person to person. Certainly Roe agrees with you.

[fetish101]

fetish, you've brought up another issue, which drifts even farther off-topic: What rights do non-sentient beings have? I don't believe the Bible is the word of God, so I don't believe that man was given dominion over the beasts. I believe that we're care-takers for the planet and that we have responsibilities toward the less-intelligent creatures, but not rights over them.

That doesn't mean we can't eat meat. Humans are omnivorous, and I, in particular, am carnivorous. It does mean we shouldn't mistreat our meat animals...or our pets.

Well, without pulling out my dictionary, by sentient what I was trying to convey was conscious. Animals are conscious. My cat is conscious. He definitely knows what he likes and doesn't like. This gives him rights. It does not however give him the same rights as a human. We as a society practice humane euthanasia for animals that are either too sick, mentally unstable, or too numerous to care for. These rights also do not apply to livestock killed for consumption. What I believe, and luckily the rest of society does too, is that all animals have the right not to be abused. Animals killed for food are done so in a humane, mostly painless manner. Animals that undergo euthanasia never even feel it coming.

[fetish101]

I wonder how many people in this thread have actually been through an abortion.

I have. Or, my ex wife has, with what would have been our child, while I sat in the waiting room.

It was a decision we made together. I think that there are valid reasons to terminate unwanted pregnancies, but when I look back on our's, I know that we were just scared of what it would do to us, and the kind of parents we would be.

Letting go of all of the crap surrounding the shape of the fetus... the simple truth is, it was a part of me in her, growing into a seperate life, and we killed it because we were afraid we'd be bad parents.

I don't want to protest abortion clinics. I just feel like people should be informed before they go to an abortion clinic or terminate their pregnancy with some herbal cure that they should consider that this kind of decision wil haunt them for the rest of their lives.

It's irreversible. Having another child is not the child you aborted; it can never be undone.

Well, I assume this question is directed to the pro abortionists here, myself being one. I have been through 3 abortions, although none of them were my child.

My mother had an abortion when she was 20, 10 years before she had me. Both my parents have gone through this with my sister and I in great detail, citing numerous reasons as to why they made that decision when they did. Monetary, mental, emotional, career reasons were the biggest ones.

My sister, now just 18, had a self induced abortion 2 years ago. She had unprotected sex, got pregnant, got really scared and found out over the internet how to perform it. I am the only person that she told about it, therefore I am the only person that she has ever talked to, confided in, or looked to for support in the matter. It was not fun going through it, but I firmly believe that she will lead a much better, balanced, successful life as a result of this. She was simply not ready for the burden.

The third abortion I have been directly connected to was my girlfriend's best friend. They have known each other since kindergarten and are very close. While this was not quite as bad for me as my sister's abortion was, the role I played was now my girlfriend's responsibility in that she was the only person her friend confided in. Obviously, I found out about it through her and offered her a lot of support having already gone through it.

My point is this; I am not someone who is just blindly throwing out his opinions on subjects that I have not ever considered. I understand abortions, and the emotional problems they cause. Knowing all this, I am still able to say with 100% certainty that the ability to have an abortion should be a right afforded to all women/couples.