Abortion

[Alex Bragi]

I’m feeling like a long tailed cat in a room full of rocking chairs, as I post this, but here it goes.

I think I’m fairly broadminded lady, but recently I was really taken back by a particular story. With Lex Ludites's permission, here are excerpts from his latest work - Tom and Joyce -the early days.

The sheer number of spurting cocks she was handling overwhelmed the birth control pills she took. Ever the idea man, Tom turned that to his advantage. First he made arrangements with the school's medical department to use Joyce as a subject when the med students were taught to perform abortions.

It got even better when one bastard to be somehow resisted the merciless assaults Joyce's cunt absorbed over the next few weeks. She now wore the words “Still Alive and Kicking” in lipstick on her stomach for all to see every morning when she attended classes.

I don't think fetal abortion is erotic or funny. Thankfully Lex assures me that none of his stories represent his views in real life. He just has a dark side, but how dark is too dark? The imagination is limitless, but how far is too far?

I recently saw the darker than dark comedy “Kill Bill’ and thoroughly enjoyed it, so maybe I’m just a fickle little bitch?

Sorry Lex, you write well, but I just couldn't get into this one.

[redEva]

I can see your point, Alex, and let me assure you – I do not find anything erotic, or in any other way amusing in as far as abortion is concerned.

But….

And I do know I’m opening another can of worms here, again, but how is abortion any different from snuff, amputation, cannibalism or underage characters. Personally I do not enjoy most of them, some I do, as well as I enjoy some other that many readers would not!

I suppose – what I am trying to say would be – if you (anyone) hit something that is not up to personal liking – skip the paragraph or hit little “x” button – always worked for me

P.S. – saw Kill Bill and I did liked it (I love Tarantino anyhow) but – wow, the classification as dark comedy – never came to mind – one thing I did not think it was – would be funny. Just goes to show we all have different perceptions of what appeals.

[Lord Douche]

Med Students are taught to perform abortions? Personally, I cannot understand how it could be seen as either erotic or amusing, and from what I can tell, it was intended to be the former.
I agree with redEva, if you don't like it, skip over it, go back in your browser, or close it.

As for Kill Bill, well, I saw only a little humour in it. Most of it left my mouth gaping in horror, but the fight scene at the end made me laugh, simply because it was so outrageous. How on earth could one person possibly defeat that many ninja's?! "Incompetence" comes to mind

[Alex Bragi]

Hello redEva and Lord Douche,

Yes, I did back click here at this particular point of Lex’s story, but do you think it’s the subject or the way it’s present that makes the difference? For instance, if this had been part of an erotic horror story, would someone like me (a pretty average kind of female reader) have been more accepting? I tend to think so, as much as anything, simply because although it’s a shock you’re half expecting it. Mmm… does that make sense?

[Curtis]

Okay, this is probably off-topic, but I'll give it a go.

Lex can write some pretty hot stuff, but he's got the 'let's push too far' thing down to a science. A story he's still adding chapters to started very well (and deserved the high ratings it got), but has now degenerated into a laundry list of near-death experiences. In the example you gave, what leaped out at me was the impossibility of it. Birth control pills keep an egg from being released from an ovary. It doesn't matter how much (many?) sperm she's subjected to, if there's no egg for them to attack, she's not getting pregnant. And as for a 'bastard' surviving several abortions...let's just say that Lex doesn't write stories that are set in my world.

Having said all of that, though, I believe that what was intended to be erotic in the quoted passage is the humiliation Joyce feels from being used as a repeated practice dummy and from attending class with the message written on her tummy. Lex's stories tend to focus on wiping away a woman's personality, usually through a combination of physical and psycological overload, repeated endlessly. I don't think the abortions were intended to be erotic, I think the effect of the abortions on Joyce was intended to be an element in a (hopefully) erotic assault.

Be nice to know what Lex thinks.

[MrJerseyGuy]

Three words for ya Alex..."Fiction, fiction fiction"

I'm the biggest pervert in the world and I find stuff here that offends me! When I do, I just click the little "x" in the corner and move on. It might not be for you and me...but there are some who will enjoy it. Kiddy stuff and scat totally offend me,...but the same freedom that lets those folks read and fantasize about it lets me read and fantasize about the things I enjoy. Who is to say which of us is right and wrong. I see stories containing abortion in the same light. Not my thing...but I'm sure it's somebody's!

Happy New Year to you!

[Jones, Nikka]

I have to agree with the way Curtis analyzes Lex's probable intention and with MrJerseyGuy when he reminds us that it is only fiction. Sometimes I wish the story codes were a little more detailed, as there are things that I do not even want to begin to read, yet I believe people should have the choice to read them if they find them to their taste.
And yes, it would be nice to hear from the author.

[lex ludite]

As I told Alex prior to her post, I did have some problems with the incorporation of abortion into this story, knowing that it is a definite hot button for many people. I also know that such issues as snuff, mutilation, scat and child abuse are also lightning rods for some readers. As a writer I reserve the right to use anything that makes sense to me in order to preserve the story's integrity. Naturally I also try to stay within the guidelines that a particular site has established. As far as I'm concerned, this issue has been addressed properly, and should be brought to a close.
Now to correct a few misconceptions that were recklessly thrown about during this discussion. Joyce's "passenger" never went through an abortion and survived! Whoever said that wasn't reading what I wrote. This annoys me to no end! Where do medical students learn to perform abortions, if not in medical school? My embellishment in this SPOOF was to add a student, Joyce, to the process. Finally let me add a few words concerning my story "True Love", which is now completed. You are so wrong it hurts! The first half of the story was my usual crash and burn, take no prisoners, approach to writing. I had some kind of epiphany at that point and was unable to continue the story because I knew how it had to end from the beginning, but didn't have the courage to write what had to be written in order to give the ending some meaning. All those terrible things that Beverly suffers in excruciating detail in the second half are necessary for the story to end properly. Obviously I did not telegraph the ending, and therefore am grateful and willing to take some misguided sniping from some critics. The next time you have a hot flash or some magical insight into my private world, remember the story of the blind men and the elephant.

[castle2001]

Lex, it's fiction of another nature.

I guess the snuff code could cover abortion. Is it not what it is?

Am I in trouble by voicing a non PC view?

[Curtis]

Not in trouble, just not right.

A pre-viability fetus is not a child, not a person, it's a part of the host organism and removing one is morally no different than removing tonsils or an appendix. Post-viability the situation becomes different. I have no idea which was the case in lex's story.

[lex ludite]

In no case was the fetus ever carried longer than a couple of months. In fact the body modifications for Joyce would have initially required the abortion of a six month fetus, which was way too strong even for this writer. That's why I created another way to get the same results without facing this issue full tilt. Castle's suggestion does have some merit since there is no current category for abortion in the codes. Come to think of it that's kind of strange. I guess abortion is one issue that no one wants to step up to around here, so be it.

[Alex Bragi]

My kind friend and editor, Curtis, has informed me I misquoted part of Lex Ludite's story by not indicating the quotes were from separate parts. It should have read:

"The sheer number of spurting cocks she was handling overwhelmed the birth control pills she took. Ever the idea man, Tom turned that to his advantage. First he made arrangements with the school's medical department to use Joyce as a subject when the med students were taughtto perform abortions." ... (and, from a later paragraph) "It got even better when one bastard to be somehow resisted the merciless assaults Joyce's cunt absorbed over the next few weeks. She now wore the words “Still Alive and Kicking” in lipstick on her stomach for all to see every morning when she attended classes."

I apologise to Lex for my mistake, and regret any confusion or
misunderstanding this may have caused.

[lex ludite]

Apology accepted. I think this discussion has been educational for all those involved. It's time to move on to other matters such as writing and reviewing.

[bdsmbill]

Originally posted by Curtis
Not in trouble, just not right.

A pre-viability fetus is not a child, not a person, it's a part of the host organism and removing one is morally no different than removing tonsils or an appendix. Post-viability the situation becomes different. I have no idea which was the case in lex's story.

This is the problem with the whole abortion debate. It is all semantics. The two sides cannot agree on the definition of a child. Curtis's opinion, quoted above, is the definition of the pro-abortion crowd. The anti-abortion crowd has a different definition, and they are just as certain that theirs is right as Curtis is about his. It must be nice to be able to view the world in such a simplistic fashion.

Now, I have a different problem with opinions relating to this issue. I can't help but wonder how those who fight for a woman's absolute right to control her own body when it comes to abortion are, in many cases, the same ones telling the same woman she can't rent her body to me for a few hours. Gosh, I promise I'll return it in good condition when I'm done with it. Well, at least fair condition. I'll pay for any damage. Honest.

Bill

[lex ludite]

An excellent summary of the issue across the board. You make an excellent point in jest, or was it? If you think that issue is fun, how about the age of consent issue here in the good ole US of A? For the longest time there was no such thing in Japan and I hear that Chile is considering raising the age of consent from 12 to 14. God knows what it is in Europe and the rest of Asia? How about them apples?

[Curtis]

I thought this thread was dead! Thanks Bill.

I'm surprised that you think pro-choicers are generally anti-prostitution. I haven't seen any surveys done on the subject, so you may well be correct, but my position is that prostitution should be legal and regulated, like the right to serve alcohol or sell firearms, with monthly doctor's visits and STD checks (plus pension plans, medical and dental coverage, income tax witholding and all that rot).

On the other hand, I think most pimps deserve to be taken out and shot.

(lex, you'll find two or three other 'age of consent' threads scattered about; one of them currently active.)

[bdsmbill]

Originally posted by lex ludite
An excellent summary of the issue across the board. You make an excellent point in jest, or was it? If you think that issue is fun, how about the age of consent issue here in the good ole US of A? For the longest time there was no such thing in Japan and I hear that Chile is considering raising the age of consent from 12 to 14. God knows what it is in Europe and the rest of Asia? How about them apples?

It wasn't really in jest. This is the heart of the issue. Nobody argues that women should be allowed to kill their children. The different sides in this issue just have hugely differing views of when it should be considered a child. There seems to be no compromise position available.

Now, age of consent is 16 in Britain. Here in the US it varies by state. It is not a constant 18, as many suppose. Also, in several states it depends upon the difference in age between the two partners. A 16 year old may be fair game if you are 18, but jailbait if you are 25.

Bill

[bdsmbill]

Originally posted by Curtis
I'm surprised that you think pro-choicers are generally anti-prostitution. I haven't seen any surveys done on the subject, so you may well be correct, but my position is that prostitution should be legal and regulated, like the right to serve alcohol or sell firearms, with monthly doctor's visits and STD checks (plus pension plans, medical and dental coverage, income tax witholding and all that rot).

Ever notice how nobody wants to get caught being against anything? That's why it's pro-choice and pro-life, instead of anti-life and anti-choice.

Anyway, the movement to legalise abortion was and is a feminist issue. While there may be feminist groups who favor legalizing prostitution, I am not aware of any. Their position is that it is evil exploitation of women and should not be tolerated, no matter what the individual sex worker may think.

Now, I agree with you that it should be legal. While medical insurance, dental, pensions, etc. are nice, they imply that everyone would have to work for a large enough firm to make this happen. What about the woman who wants to be self employed? How about the three close friends who just want to make a little money for Christmas? Think about the plight of the twins (OK, we're getting into fantasy territory here) who want to raise some spending money with a lettle tag-team action?

The required exams for STDs would be good, but may be overrated. The incidence of STDs among prostitutes is currently no higher than in the single female population as a whole (in the US). The real risk there is tatoos, and the risk is high in professional parlors. It isn't the needles. They reuse the ink, which is expensive. They usually pour off some ink from the bottle into a separate container, but when done, many pour it back into the bottle. Right now, 40% of Hep C cases are contracted at professional tatoo parlors.

Be careful!

Bill

[Curtis]

"What about the woman who wants to be self employed?" What, non-union labor? Perish the thought! (Actually, I'm anti-union, myself.)

My father was self-employed and still had to withold (quarterly, rather than weekly) and pay a double-share of social security taxes (no unemployment tax, though).

And, while we're on the subject of fantasy, let's not forget that prostitution is 'the oldest profession'. Professional people need to be TRAINED and liscensed, and need to be periodically requalified and undergo refresher-training. Practising without a liscence, except upon your own family, makes you subject to arrest and...punishment.

While you may be right about the incidence of STDs in North America and Western Europe, in the Balkans, India and most of sub-Saharan Africa rates of HIV infection run nearly 100% among prostitutes.

The British Army liscenced and inspected prostitutes in their areas of operation during both world wars, and the rate of STD infection among their troops was less than 10% of what it was among American soldiers, who had unenlightened top brass.

I suspect that this is also why Americans left so many bastards behind when we pulled out of Europe in WWII and later Vietnam. It may have happened to British soldiers, too, but I sure don't hear about it.

Finally, I think you're probably right about how the feminists of the 70s feel about prostitution, but the 'new age' feminists, with their 'Grrl power', seem to believe that feminism is all about taking charge of your sexuality. If that's really the case, shouldn't they be in favor of legalized protitution? Or wouldn't they consider prostitution to be an expression of sexuality? Maybe they would consider it to be a business.

I'm liking this thread!

[bdsmbill]

Originally posted by Curtis
"While you may be right about the incidence of STDs in North America and Western Europe, in the Balkans, India and most of sub-Saharan Africa rates of HIV infection run nearly 100% among prostitutes.

Finally, I think you're probably right about how the feminists of the 70s feel about prostitution, but the 'new age' feminists, with their 'Grrl power', seem to believe that feminism is all about taking charge of your sexuality. If that's really the case, shouldn't they be in favor of legalized protitution? Or wouldn't they consider prostitution to be an expression of sexuality? Maybe they would consider it to be a business.

Yes, I was referring to the STD rates in the US, which is the only area for which I had information.

The major feminist organizations, such as NOW, are still opposed to prostitution. Of course it's a business. The trouble is that it's now an illegal business, so the workers have no protection under the law. This leaves them open to exploitation by pimps, dangerous and non-paying clients, and arrest or further exploitation by police. Certainly it would be a better situation if it was not illegal.

[Spitman]

In France prostitution is legal. Prostitutes have trade unions, pay taxes and get health care. In the Netherlands they tolerate bordellos because they make sex workers more accessible for health controls. In the UK I believe there are plans to legalise prostitution for similar reasons, but it will be a lot tougher on pimps. I think prostitution is also legal in Germany. In Italy I heard that there is a plan to legalise bordellos, to get prostitutes off the streets.

In some countries the age of consent is actually lower for prostitutes!

[MrJerseyGuy]

Originally posted by Lord Douche
Med Students are taught to perform abortions? Personally, I cannot understand how it could be seen as either erotic or amusing, and from what I can tell, it was intended to be the former.
I agree with redEva, if you don't like it, skip over it, go back in your browser, or close it.

I don't find it erotic either...but then lets all remember that most of the general poulation doesn't find anything erotic or amusing about our lifestyle either. We all associate with people everyday who would think of us as preverts or disgusting if they knew what went on in our bedrooms or our minds.

If you're not into it...don't do it. If you don't like it, don't read it.

[Alex Bragi]

Ok, ok, ok. If you don’t like it, don’t read it. If you don’t enjoy it, back click. Got it! Got it! Got it!

Now getting back to the original question, how dark is too dark? Is there such a thing? Should certain topics be off limits? Not necessarily this one, anything? Should some things be taboo even when they're ficticious?

Recently I read about the downfall of internet porn king, Tom Reedy, whose main defence was – the photographs posted, which shocked and distressed hardened Dallas police, were computer generated - no children were harmed. Forgetting the example of Lex’s story, if it’s not really ‘real’, how much more acceptable is it? Should, for example, paedophilias be allowed to view computer generated kiddy porn?

Personally, I just don’t feel comfortable with this kind of appetite is being fed. Why? I think it’s like eating carob, it tastes ok for a while, but then you really have to have some chocolate.

Oh, please, before anyone jumps in and says ‘Oh but reading a murder mystery doesn’t make you want to go out and shoot some one!” Well, that’s true, but almost everyone has the urge to have sex with someone, some time, while very few get the urge to kill another - anytime.

Oh yes, that reminds me, has anyone here read Mike Agostini’s “Death the Ultimate Orgasm’? I read a brief overview of it the other day, and I’m now tracking down a copy.

Alex.

[j]

Lex and others,

I recall an old 'Playboy Forum' letter with this pearl of wisdom:
'Life starts when the kids are married and the dog is dead'.

This settled the issue when I read it first!

Seriously, Lex has oodles of talent and he's obviously a driven writer. He's best avoided by squeamish readers, but I have found that having my envelope pushed a bit hard can be part of the pleasure of BDSM books. The secret is not to allow oneself to grow 'numb' to softer, more civilized pleasures. I have books which would raise most eyebrows in this company, and others which would be seen as almost vanilla. (ALMOST!!!) Yet all can make me cum.

[fetish101]

Originally posted by Curtis
I thought this thread was dead! Thanks Bill.

I'm surprised that you think pro-choicers are generally anti-prostitution. I haven't seen any surveys done on the subject, so you may well be correct, but my position is that prostitution should be legal and regulated, like the right to serve alcohol or sell firearms, with monthly doctor's visits and STD checks (plus pension plans, medical and dental coverage, income tax witholding and all that rot).

On the other hand, I think most pimps deserve to be taken out and shot.

(lex, you'll find two or three other 'age of consent' threads scattered about; one of them currently active.)

Most women get involved with pimps because originally they were their boyfriends that supplied them with drugs. Once the pimps get the girl hooked, they then take away the supply. The women get so desperate that they will do anything, i.e: prostitution, to get that supply. They give the pimp the money they make hooking and the pimp then obliges their addictions. My personal views on "taking pimps out and shooting them" are that that will only create a power vacuum that will be filled by the next drug dealer. To really get rid of forced prostitution, you need to get rid of the drug trade.

[bdsmbill]

Originally posted by fetish101
My personal views on "taking pimps out and shooting them" are that that will only create a power vacuum that will be filled by the next drug dealer. To really get rid of forced prostitution, you need to get rid of the drug trade.

In addition, the pimps provide a needed service. Prostitutes do not have recourse to help from the police because prostitution is illegal. If they have trouble with customers not paying or assaulting them, the pimp is their only option. The solution to this is to legalize prostitution.

Bill

[Spitman]

I would not enjoy a story that made fun of abortion, which is too serious an issue for me, but I would not challenge an author's right to express whatever ideas he has in a story.

In a similar way, I have my personal views on abortion, but whatever people think about it, they tend not to be swayed by any argument. My own view is that whatever the justification, to abort a child is exactly like giving the death sentence for a parking offence, but I also accept that there are situations when the interests of the mother should take precedence. What I don't accept is abortions carried out purely for social or economic reasons, and mostly abortion is carried out for what I see as purely selfish reasons.

I don't associate opinions on abortion with those on prostitution, or anything else, but there are groups of people with the same view on a combination of topics. They call the larger ones political parties, and sometimes the smaller ones are called pressure groups.

On prostitution, some good views have been expressed here. If there was a way to decouple prostitution from crime, drugs etc. that is where I would want to go. Prostitution can be and often is a particularly appalling form of slavery in which the prostitute's personal dignity and even her protection from disease are surrendered. Some men will never treat a woman with respect, so I will not pretend that even in an ideal world prostitution is going to be a nice profession, but at least it can be voluntary, and a prostitute can have health care and protection from criminal exploitation.

[bdsmbill]

Originally posted by Spitman
On prostitution, some good views have been expressed here. If there was a way to decouple prostitution from crime, drugs etc. that is where I would want to go. Prostitution can be and often is a particularly appalling form of slavery in which the prostitute's personal dignity and even her protection from disease are surrendered. Some men will never treat a woman with respect, so I will not pretend that even in an ideal world prostitution is going to be a nice profession, but at least it can be voluntary, and a prostitute can have health care and protection from criminal exploitation.

The only way to eliminate the crime/slavery aspects of prostitution is to make it legal, so professional sex workers have the same recourse to help from the authorities that everyone else enjoys.

Bill

[GaryWilcox]

That's one thing I wish they would legalize. But the standards of practice would need to be ridiculously high.

[niyah2]

Being in the medical profession i have seen the results of alot of terrible things. Women beaten to make them have an abortion, women using coat hangers to abort themselves due to no abortion facility available. Abortions with half knowledged people because its cheap and fast. Then the woman shows in the ER with a major infection from the dirty equipment. My view on abortion is irrelevant but i will say it is my body and my choice period.

As for the story writing about abortions and "Lex" having a darkside. Look at Stephen King. He writes horror and has put abortions in His books. How far is to far I don't think there is a limit to a writer's darkness or there should be one. It is from within the writer's mind of imagination and some have a gift for the darker than dark while others have the gift for the lighter and most godly of light. i have a darkside and sometimes i fear writing it for people saying it is to dark or how can someone that nice write something as dark or evil as that. Then i look at other author's out there and i find myself saying well they did it why can't i?

A writer that has no blocks, no walls surrounding what they write is a better writer for it. If we hold back we are cheating ourselves as writers and the readers who sit and wait for our next piece to come out.

As for prositution it should be legal. It would then be safer for everyone concerned. It would also help keep runaways from being sold into slavery or shipped to another country to serve as a sex slave.

We each have our own opinions and these opinions are right to us but they do not have to be right to others.

niyah2