just an idea...

[sirthumper]

This is just an idea for a story that I thought of...

The story starts with a network of men, all older guys (40s and 50s), who band together solely for the purpose of kidnapping and raping a young girl. I'd make The Network consist of, say, 8-12 guys.

The early part of the tale should focus on their preparations, i.e. outfitting a small house outside of town with all the necessary "equipment". I imagine one guy in the Network should be wealthy - to afford the house - or maybe all the guys could pitch-in to buy the place and stuff they'll need.

Then, I'd have the men start prowling for a victim. They could visit places like the local malls, junior high volleyball games, local waterparks, etc. until they decide on a suitable candidate. I'd have them pick a younger girl, around 8th or 9th grade, and innocent. I have a preference for petite girls, like 4'11, 90 lbs., but a bit larger is okay too.

Once they get a prospect, then they have to abduct her. I'd have the men stake-out her house, maybe even stalking her and keeping tabs on her with video and sound survielance equipment. They should keep her under constant watch until one weekend, when her parents are gone shopping, and the girl is home alone, they decide to strike. Her abduction could take place as she sunbathes in her backyard (her parents live in a secluded unscale home). I'd have her facedown on a blanket, wearing a flimsy bikini, as the 4 men approach. All the men should be wearing masks of some sort. Either ski masks or pantyhose.

It's up to you if you want the men to rape the girl then and there in her backyard, or wait until they carry her back to the van, or even wait until they get back to the house. Or all three! Either way, I'd have the men leave behind a type-written "runaway" note, to throw off her parents and cops.

Once they get back to the house, do whatever you want with her, but no disfiguring torture or snuff. Personally, I don't go for that.

Still, after weeks or humiliation, abuse, and near-constant rape, the men make some contacts over the Internet and successfully sell the young girl to an overseas contact. The story ends with the tiny teenager being packed into a crate (with airholes!) and shipped overseas, where she disappears forever into the shadowy world of N. African harems and white slavery. Never to be seen again!

Yikes!

Uh, anyway, I hope this idea inspires somebody. Thanks for your time.

[Cleo671]

Not meaning to sound 'offensive', but isn't 8th or 9th grade over where you are, a girl that is under the age of legal consent?
In other words your referring to a 'child'.

I find that you have written your post sufficiently, and that your grasp of the English language is adequate. So, my next question is, when it concerns 'children', why can't you write your own very little personal story? After all you have practically written a synopsis right here haven't you? I think in most 'places' people actually do find the use of children in sexual stories or porn offensive. Do people consider, before posting 'topics' whether or not other people have children or not or do topics require 'codes' now?. That's a subject I'd sure like to raise.


Its fair to say that this is a forum where ideas can be tossed around, but I find it disturbing when the subject of children is something that is associated with 'sexual' arousal. What is sexually arousing about a child? A girl of that age is a child.

Next time you wanna place a topic on 'child' rape, why don't you code it, so those of us that do have children, HAVE THE OPTION OF NOT SEEING THE FIRST FEW SENTENCES.


THANKYOU.

[Neopadinski]

Eighth or ninth grade...that would make this female...approximately 13 or 14. Er...yes, that does produce some negative points. Hm...the actual storyline does sound quite enticing...I would accept it and change the age, if I didn't have a massive story that I'm already working on. Maybe, if you're willing to hold that thought, I could write it once I'm done with the other one (but that's going to take quite some time, I've only just finished part two and the story's just heating up).
As for the child porn stuff, I think sirthumper just made a small mistake-the underage thing was kind of minor in the synopsis, and had I been the one writing it, I wouldn't have thought to put the code in the title. Not that I'm saying Cleo is wrong, just making clear that I think sirthumper made the mistake honestly.
Now that I think of it, when a person says "ninth grade", you don't really think of them as THAT old. After all, one more tends to think of that girl in High School, rather than their age, which makes the girl sound older. I don't have kids, but I would assume that a mother or father would pick up on the opposite-age over connotation.

[Kallie Thomas]

Originally posted by Cleo671
Not meaning to sound 'offensive', but isn't 8th or 9th grade over where you are, a girl that is under the age of legal consent?
In other words your referring to a 'child'.

That's 14-15 years old in these parts. Old enough to marry in many states. Hardly a "child" in the sense you suggest.

Sex with a girl of 14 in my area is considered a 'statutory" crime--much like underage drinking or driving. If the girl is 14 and the actor is less than 4 years older, it is not a crime at all, statutory or otherwise. If the girl is 15-17 and the actor is less than 10 years older, it is not a crime, statutory or otherwise. Now, if your objection is to the idea of abduction and forcible rape, well sure, that's a bad thing regardless of the age of the victim. But you'll find a lot of abducting and forcible raping in the stories on this site. Good thing it's all fiction.

I think that's really what it boils down to--it's fiction. And in this, of all venues, we should expect to be a bit shocked, surprised, or even appalled at times. Requiring that "warnings" be attached to posts on the forum would do nothing but create a whole lot of busywork for the folks who provide us this forum. Please, no slight intended, but I don't agree that we need such labeling of posts. If we're here, the assumption is we're of age and capable of dealing with material we may find unsavory. Applying warnings of possibly "offensive" material in posts strikes me as being as unnecessary as affixing warnings to lighters proclaiming them "flammable."

Well, no shit.

My apologies--I don't mean to offend, truly. But I have to say that I feel applying "warning labels" to posts belabors the obvious. This is a BDSM forum. Of COURSE some things are going to offend.


Kallie

[Cleo671]

That's 14-15 years old in these parts. Old enough to marry in many states. Hardly a "child" in the sense you suggest

In what sense is that?
A girl of 14-15, here 8th or 9th grade can be 13-14.
The suggestion you make is that 'heaps' of girls that age are all 'sexually' mature individuals, when the reality is that they aren't. They are still children in the sense that the majority are in SCHOOL, they live at home and I would doubt their 'first' goal would be to be 'married' in all that this entails ie they are minors.

but I'm not going to even continue in this train because I know it's gonna upset many, but it's food for thought either way.

I'd be really interested as to which writer would feel 'comfortable' ultimately to write the story using a girl of that age.

And if it's a writer that is considering a 'professional' career, then perhaps a little more food for thought.. because ultimately karma does exist and literary things usually do come back thricefold.

[boccaccio2000g]

Originally posted by Cleo671
That's 14-15 years old in these parts. Old enough to marry in many states. Hardly a "child" in the sense you suggest

In what sense is that?
A girl of 14-15, here 8th or 9th grade can be 13-14.
The suggestion you make is that 'heaps' of girls that age are all 'sexually' mature individuals, when the reality is that they aren't. They are still children in the sense that the majority are in SCHOOL, they live at home and I would doubt their 'first' goal would be to be 'married' in all that this entails ie they are minors.

Cleo, while I'm sympathetic to your concerns, I think that "age" is more subjective than the stark mathematical number that age represents. It's a question, I think, of physical and emotional maturity. In some times and in some places, girls of fourteen have been considered quite mature. Juliet, after all, was fourteen, and we don't feel that Romeo was taking advantage of her, do we?

So I think it depends -- just as it does with real fourteen-year-olds, some of whom are very mature (mentally and emotionally, I mean) and some of whom are not.

That said, I believe that the youngest "woman" to appear in one of my stories was fifteen -- but fifteen in a faraway land long ago, where, partly because of much shorter life spans, girls were considered 'nubile' or marriageable at a much earlier age than nowadays.

Personally, I share your distaste for stories which sexualize "little girls", however we define them. It's just that I'm not sure that we can define them with a number. I personally would click to another story if any 'heroine' is describes as thirteen or younger -- but I wouldn't rule out the possibility that someone could write an intelligent story about the love-life, real and imagined, of some thirteen-year-olds.


Boccaccio

[Kallie Thomas]

Originally posted by Cleo671
I'd be really interested as to which writer would feel 'comfortable' ultimately to write the story using a girl of that age.

I may write it, should the inspiration come upon me. If I do, I feel confident the appropriate coding on the story will keep you from cracking it open and taking offense

Originally posted by Cleo671 And if it's a writer that is considering a 'professional' career, then perhaps a little more food for thought.. because ultimately karma does exist and literary things usually do come back thricefold.

A few points to consider:

1) Already have a professional career.

2) Karma is a polluting or sweetening of the waters we must all swim in rather than the common misconception of "do a bad deed, it nails you in the ass later." If, of course, you believe in Karma. I don't.

3) I would venture to say that the vast majority of writers here do not use their real names. I'm not Kallie Thomas--are you Cleo671?

4) If what you say is actually true, then every writer here, whether they pen stories with 13 year olds or 30 year olds, is ripe for the title "pornographer" and "perv," and would suffer for their writing. But I look at it this way--Roman Polanski can drug and rape a 13 year old, flee punishment, and still be heralded as one of the greats, still see amazing successes in his career. And if he can do that, I can likely pen a few stories with 14 year old subjects and be A-okay, especially considering I do deal in matters of fiction.


Kallie

[redEva]

Wow – talking about posts going awry!

SirThumper (Bambi comes to mind – so sweet – did Thumper grow up?) do come back and talk to us. First post and we scared you away?!

It is interesting, this discussion, the feelings it provoked and generally the feelings about BDSM.

I was involved in BDSM (in my fantasies and in real life) for long time before I returned to college and took “Human Sexuality” elective – figuring out it will be an easy mark . And so it was – except having a teacher who gave a lecture declaring that people involved in BDSM practice are emotionally disturbed, psychically debilitated people that are not capable of having ‘normal’ sexual relationship. Woman of 50+, me (34) and a classroom full of 20 years! I did not have much choice but to let that one go (though, if a thought could kill – she would not be alive any more!).

At different times in our life’s, due to the circumstances we are in or have been through, we have different points of view and different reactions to things. Being mother/father of a minor changes your perspective from which you reflect upon fantasy stories involving minor characters. If one has been a victim of molestation as a child – the reactions will be very strong (and can go either way; from being drawn to incest/sex-with-minor stories to being completely appalled by the same).

One thing to keep in mind is (as kallie and boccaccio said) that what we are talking here about is fantasy stories. I have found and read (because I was looking for them!) stories here and on the other sites involving minors and children. To me, children are asexual, and having them involved in any sexual activity is not arousing, just prepubescent and teens are (in most cases in real life) at least sexually curious, which makes them fair game for story (in my mind).

As Cleo pointed out – good thing is that stories have codes! So you don’t need to read what you don’t like. For the Forum on the other hand – IMHO – the codes would be overkill. I see it somewhat similar as Movies vs. News on TV. You get your rating for movie, but News can be just as much disturbing (if not more in many cases) but one expect it to be kind-of edgy.

The story suggestion is cool in my opinion. Not exactly the same but on the same line (and close in the age category ) are Ninja Turtle stories. I would love to read the story that you are describing – why don’t you try to write it?

Good luck

[Neopadinski]

Hm...yes, I personally don't find [u]very[u\] young heroines to be sexually arousing, simply because they aren't as fully matured as they could be. For me, I tend to lean toward the sixteen year olds and higher, as they are still young and innocent, but are quite mature (physically and otherwise).
As for that comment redEva made about the lecturer telling about the joys of psycological screwups involved in bdsm, I think that's crap. The concept of seeing that very attractive female on the street tied up and naked and being assaulted doesn't make me a weirdo (though I still wouldn't advertise it via shouting it from the rooftops). However, I wouldn't be surprised if the two [psycological badness and bdsm] were related, but the other way around. An interest in bdsm doesn't make one a horny psycopath that steals women (or, in cases other than mine, men), but I wouldn't be surprised if the lonely kid with no friends and cuts himself with knives every night (exaggeration) DEVELOPED an interest in bdsm. If placed in those shoes, I would find it very comforting knowing that the "super-hot female that pretends I don't exist" is bound and gagged and about to be punished by me for being a bitch. I wouldn't be able to do it in real life, but I could get ideas from bdsm stories/pictures and ACTUALLY take this girl. Now, to sum it all up, I don't think that an interest in BDSM makes someone abnormal; instead, I think that an abnormal person might coincidentally have an interest in it, because it gives that person a feeling of satisfaction or something else. Is this making sense? Because I only woke up 45 minutes ago and I'm not even sure what day it is.

[Curtis]

I probably shouldn't even bring this up (though I will, anyway), but another aspect of this is just what age constitutes pedophilia. e.e.norcod, some fellow I can't remember, and I had a discussion in another thread about 'how young is too young'. One of us thought that 12 was ok, one thought 14 and one held out for 16. I believe that Jinn has set 13 as the minimum threshold for stories submitted to this site, and I know BDSM_Tourguide and/or Jinn deleted a facetious want ad for someone looking for a young girl.

The point I'm trying to make is, if you're going to call for 'posting codes', where do you draw the 'pedo' line? If it's at 12, then sirthumper is golden. If it's a different age, then why is it different?

There is AT LEAST one other thread discussing legal age of consent and how it varies from nation to nation and state to state. My state is a lot stricter than Kallie Thomas' state, but The Green And Pleasant Land seems to be more liberal than either, so whose arbitrary standard gets used?

It looks like Jinn's gets used, and that's good enough for me.

[Cleo671]

Originally posted by Kallie Thomas
And if he can do that, I can likely pen a few stories with 14 year old subjects and be A-okay, especially considering I do deal in matters of fiction.


Kallie

yep.. so just because Ernest Hemingway shot himself in the head..I might as well go and do that to.. if we go by that logic alone.

There are a lot of adults that are involved in bdsm, but it's adult play, it's their lifestyle, it's their choice.

what Neopadinksi said is important

An interest in bdsm doesn't make one a horny psycopath that steals women

just like homosexuality doesn't make a homosexual a pederast..

but just like other 'areas' that are grey, the term bdsm = bondage,discipline, sadism and masochism is just that to 'me'. To others sure it's going to vary.

when it's between adults, it's usually with a form of consent.
However as there are grey areas in everything, there are extensions to this I do realise..so 'I'm sorry' for making a point about what I did, so yeah I guess it will include gang rape of a minor...

anyway, the point I made is 'valid' whether it's liked or really abhorred, whether it's annoyed people or whatever..

as for codes? Forget codes, why not have a forum section that's simply titled.
" Rape stories featuring minors?"

[GaryWilcox]

Out of everyone in the forum, I'm probably the person with the most widely-known 'issue' with the lifestyle, namely that I have been known to stop participating, deleting all my writing and collected images, and walk away from BDSM altogether.

Since I have that perspective, I should probably say something here, lest you think I am cowardly shrinking to the background, which I guess I was.

Back when I started, I decided the age group I would put my victims in would not defy the bar of sixteen. I have been in high school and lusted brainlessly after fourteen-year-old freshmen girls, so I'm aware that girls can be sexually aware and active at that age... but at the time I felt like that, I was a child myself.

It doesn't disturb me to see people write about the rape of a fourteen year old as it does to see someone want to see the planning of such a thing, the plotting. I write evil, vile characters, but I *won't* give someone a blueprint for crime. For instance, Kallie's recent story, Trust & Toilets, I abandoned after finding out the victim was a) 15 and b) way too gullible for me to enjoy. Kallie writes some pretty hardcore stuff whens he's in the mood, and I don't really have a problem with that. Some of her stuff I love. Some of her stuff I don't read. Easy enough. <g>

I had considered writing this story as an exercise-- learning how to compromise what a reader wants without having to do what I personally (and Cleo, too) consider an evil-- writing about a game plan to rape a fourteen year old girl. I have a niece that age; it would worry me that someone like her, someone I don't know, might suffer because of my story. Since my 'sacrifice porn to Jesus" stint, I have grown increasingly insistent on making certain that the reader identifies with the victim, as well as the attacker(s).

If I were to write this story, I would make the victim the focus of the story, let her wonder how they pulled it off, and tell it almost entirely from her miserable, unhappy perspective. I think the stories I am most uncomfortable with are entirely misogynistic and have no empathy for the victim's plight or contain any of her mental process.

And I think I'd make her eighteen-- a Chinese exchange student with a small, pert body for sirthumper, without sacrificing my own ethics.

My two cents, folks. Spend 'em both in one place!

[Kallie Thomas]

Originally posted by Cleo671
yep.. so just because Ernest Hemingway shot himself in the head..I might as well go and do that to.. if we go by that logic alone.

Logic? Your logic, hon, not mine--that's not even close to what I said. Want me to lay it out for you in simpler terms? Here: If Roman Polanski can do something THAT atrocious in REAL life and suffer nothing for it, odds have it my little works of fiction aren't going to cause me any grief. And that, my dear, is a far, far cry from saying, "He did it, so I'll do it, too!" Of course, it's possible that you didn't misunderstand at all, but rather intentionally misrepresented my words. Sad to say, folks do that with appalling frequency. Remember, you were the one who claimed that those of us who write fiction involving minors were likely to suffer damage, career-wise. I was merely showing the flaw in that theory.

This is the spot where I'm supposed to roll my eyes dismissively, right? Well, I don't play that way. We'll leave the rolling eyes to you.

And no one said your point wasn't valid, only that the suggested solution was unecessary and somewhat redundant. In a forum such as this, if WE aren't smart enough and adult enough to blink, shake our heads, and close a post that offends us, then maybe we aren't smart enough or adult enough to be in this forum.

Here's another illustrative statement--I don't believe in censoring television, but rather support the right of people to change the channel. I don't support the shuffling of certain books into dark little back rooms with signs over the doors, but rather support the right of folks to not purchase or read them. And I can't get behind labeling posts or throwing them into a marked bin based upon the possibility that you might be offended, but rather support your right to read those first few lines, realize it's not your cup of tea, and click that "back" button.

Like the rest of us do. There have been threads and photographs here I have found spectacularly offensive. I click out. I change the channel.

Try it.

Kallie

[Kallie Thomas]

Originally posted by GaryWilcox
Kallie writes some pretty hardcore stuff whens he's in the mood, and I don't really have a problem with that. Some of her stuff I love. Some of her stuff I don't read. Easy enough. <g>

Thank you, Gary That's exactly what I'm talking about--click out, back slowly away if the words on the page offend. I do it all the time, and it is just that easy.

Believe it or not, there are stories I begin to write, and then back away because I just cannot find it within myself to finish. The story you mention was almost one of those. The battle I fight is one where age vs innocence, i.e., I like the innocent victim, the naive victim who is absolutely stunned by what's happening. But it's hard to attribute that naivete to a 37 year old character. I suppose I could make all my victims novice nuns, but that has a couple of built-in problems: 1) it brings about hate mail (people respond very strongly to enslaved, abused nuns), and 2) that would get awfully boring after a while. I've used a deaf character to impart that innocence, and that worked pretty well, but again, I can't make every character deaf. So what I wind up with are 15-16 year old victims who are particularly sheltered. It's a compromise for me.

Personal experience colors all of our works. At 14, I was the only girl in my group of 8 or so who wasn't sexually active. Not one of my friends hadn't had sex by 13. By the time I had my first child, two of my highschool friends were grandmothers. Working as a bartender to get through college cemented my ideas about teens and sex--I spent as much time tossing 13-14 year olds out of the bars as I did mixing drinks. And these girls were dressed and made up and behaving like women, not children. To borrow from them, the were there to get drunk and laid. So in my experience, many 14 year old girls most certainly are sexually active, in a big way. And that's why I don't blink at a 14 year old character.


I can absolutely sympathize with Cleo's distaste for stories/posts that delve into underage sex. What I can't understand is the desire to slap warning labels on anything and everything that might offend. We're adults here--I have faith that we can just close a post that offends and move on to the next, rather than stomp and fume and insist that things be set up in such a way as to protect our sensibilities.

Kallie

[sirthumper]

First of all, I'd like to thank everyone for their intelligent comments. Thanks for responding y'all! How kind.

First off, It seems a few people are overly concerned about the age I posted for the "victim" of my tale. Truth be told, I think I erred and placed the possible age a wee bit too young. I thing the lowest anyone should go in a story is 15, and the ideal age for the character in my tale is 15-16. So, I really should have said 9th or 10th grade. Oops! Me bad!

Now, I'm aware a few who posted will STILL think that is too young. Well, I just have a few questions for those individuals: what age is the appropriate to write a bdsm FANTASY tale? And what exactly makes the humiliation and abuse of a 15 year-old WRONG, while the torment of an 18 year-old is somehow "a-okay?" Answer me that, and maybe I'll bump the age up a few years.

Ya see, it seems to me a few people are having trouble grasping the concept of the word "story." That's all this little idea is, nothing more. It will NEVER happen in real life! A vast Network of rapists doesn't exist, and NEVER will! Ya see, rapists are sociopaths, and typically pathetic, weak, weasly men who probably don't have many friends, and would hardly function in a large group with a complex common goal that requires intricate planning and patience. That's what makes my story idea rather safe as far as a possible motivator for copycat psychos. 'Nuff said?

As for me personally, I never have - and NEVER WILL - harm any female. I'm involved with a gorgeous college girl who's both an athlete and an exceptional scholar. (Her 3.9 GPA blows-away the paltry 3.2 I recieved.) Curiosly enough, she's also a virgin - quite an accomplishment for a girl that's 21 in this day and age. I respect her stance regarding premarital sex and will stand by her decision It's just that every now and then I enjoy stories like those that can be found in bdsm sites. Extreme erotica is a fairly enticing turn-on for me, just so long as the writer has the literary chops to put together a good well-paced story.

Bottom line: I like my story idea, and I prefer my victims a wee bit on the the young side. If that's too extreme, well, tough cookies! I myself have problems with stories involving snuff and scat and any type of disfiguring torture. Too me, that's too extreme. Ya see, we all have our bizarre preferences when reading this sort of FICTION. Lets just keep this in mind: we're dealing with fantasy here, get it? It's not real!

Now get writing! (On my story idea, that is.)

Oh yeah, one more thing: Have a Very MERRY CHRISTMAS!!!!

Sirthumper

p.s. Once again, thanks for writing such nice polite replies.

[sirthumper]

One more thing:

First of all, sorry for the few punctuation and grammer goofs in my previous post. Darn! Not enough sleep last night. Me and the girl were up talking till 5am.

Regarding Point of View in my tale, I prefer the 3rd person omniscient. I think the take is most effective if told from that point of view, not from the girl's point of view. The focus on the story should be on her humiliation and the various ways the men choose to torment her. Check-out "Test Subjects" by Xodus, or "Sneaking Out" by Semiater. I like the tone and literary quality of those tales. But that's just me.

The reason I have so much interest in the planning of the girl's abduction in my tale is to build suspense. Too many stories skimp on this aspect of the tale - the build-up - and the stories suffer as a consequence. In addition, for the victim, the revelation that a large group of older men pooled their resources and energies for weeks to plan her abduction, well, that should have a devestating effect on her mental state. The sense of dread she feels, as she comes to realize she'd been the object of their eyes for weeks and months, should only add to her sense of utter helplessness.

Uh, just thought I'd add that little bit.

Take care, and Happy Holidays!!

p.s. Oh yeah, I forgot to mention the various "Tiffany" stories by Dr. Wu and even the short "Mammoth Cave" by Typoman. Other good stories!

[MrJerseyGuy]

I agree with sirthumper that the "fantasy" and "fiction" perspective shouldn't be lost. Personally, underage isn't my thing but I have no problem with someone writing about it or reading about it. The main thing that would stop me from writing about forcible acts on an underage girl is the remote possibility that someone with different values would read it, like it and act it out. I couldn't live with myself if I provided the motivation behind such a thing. I realize it's a rare possibility and even if it did happen its unlikely I would ever know about it. Still, the easiest way to avoid the whole thing is simply not to write it!

I've even thought about writing of a 15 or 16 year old girl who is ahead of her years and uses sex to blackmail men.

[woodsman'sgame]

When sexual abuse at 13 and older has been a part of someone's real life, stories like this become extremely distasteful.

If it is all fantasy, I suppose it is no different from the rape of a twenty year old. Rape fantasies are rape fantasies.

What age is too young? Well we can debate forever on that. Yes, as has been pointed out, it all depends on the country, the girl, the time in history.

But, in my opinion, what it all boils down to is this: if the writer portrays the female as a child and not as a grown woman (pay attention to the description of the female to make this decision), then its child abuse and child pornography, period, no matter what the age.

I read a story in the library that had a 14 year old, but the description of the female from her physical appearance to her mental disposition was that of a child, a little girl, innocent and unaware of sex. In my opinion, that story was a story of child abuse. I don't care if the girl had been 18. She was described as a child. The author put an arbritary age out to pass the criteria for publication. I read this story to the end to see how far this author would go. The last chapter described the rapists' plans to get a 9 or 10 year old next. I think this one may have slipped by Jinn.

There is something to think about.

[Neopadinski]

I do believe I have brought up this point already, but in my stories, the female is always 16 or so. I just so happen to think of that age group being prime for the types of stories I write.
I must also bring up another point: I would never hit a girl, I would, however, hit a male that hits a girl. Now I have walked a fine line between reality and fiction. I remember back in my...Sophomore year, was it? There was a girl that lived across the field from my house. She was absolutely beautiful-gorgeous face, huge breasts, cute feet...and for a time, I daydreamed of sneaking into her house and tickling her and all this stuff. I had no intention of ACTUALLY doing it, but that didn't stop me from planning every aspect. Hypothetically, I probably could've accomplished such a task, without even being caught. But morally, that was much too far across the line for me to even consider on a realistic level. It was always fantasy. I think perhaps that's another, more subtle aspect of what sirthumper is saying. Back when I used to do things like that, thinking of what would be done to this girl was arousing, but then thinking about the actual task of getting into her house and neutralizing her also added to the sexuality surrounding the situation. The above might have sounded quite...disturbing to some people, but keep in mind that I was a horny high school male who didn't have a girlfriend. Once I got a girlfriend and determined that sex wasn't as great as it seemed, I stopped with the creepy kind of daydreaming and turned to just thinking of plots for my stories.

[woodsman'sgame]

Bye the way, Sir Thumper, your description of your victim falls in that category I find questionable, no matter what the age.

Sir Thumper wrote:
"I'd have them pick a younger girl, around 8th or 9th grade, and innocent. I have a preference for petite girls, like 4'11, 90 lbs.,"

This sounds like a child to me. A girl of that size and age would barely even have breasts and pubic hair. She would not be fully grown, that's for sure, since most women do not stop growing until about 16.

[Xue Lan]

This is a news story from The National Post newspaper in Canada.

P.E.I. ball player sentenced to jail for sexual contact with underage girls

ALISON AULD
Canadian Press


Monday, December 22, 2003

CHARLOTTETOWN (CP) - A young baseball hopeful who dreamed of playing in the big leagues was sentenced Monday to 45 days in jail for sexual offences involving 12- and 13-year-old schoolgirls in Prince Edward Island.

Cass Rhynes, 19, listened impassively in a small provincial court room as Judge Nancy Orr read a 90-minute sentence report outlining the cases of adolescent sexual activity that stunned people throughout the Island.

In the end, she said anything but a custodial sentence would not be enough to convey the distress Rhynes caused the girls and their community.

"As 12-and 13-year olds, these girls should not have had to endure these difficulties," Orr said as Rhynes stood before her in a dark black suit and gold tie.

"A sentence should denounce this conduct."

Rhynes appeared unmoved by the decision and merely rolled his eyes when the judge ruled out handing him a conditional sentence because she feared he might reoffend.

Orr also sentenced Rhynes to one year's probation and 100 hours of community service.

He is also forbidden from being alone with girls under the age of 14 and has to write letters of apology to the victims in the case.

Rhynes, a catcher drafted by the Los Angeles Dodgers earlier this year, admitted during his trial that he received oral sex from two girls who he believed were over 14 years of age, the age of consent in Canada.

In fact, the girls were 12- and 13-year-old junior high students.

Rhynes, of Cornwall, P.E.I., was convicted in October on two counts of inciting girls under the age of 14 to touch him for sexual purposes.

Now that he has a criminal record, Rhynes will be barred from entry to the United States, regardless of whether he manages to revive his chance of a career in pro ball.

A relative of one of the girls said Monday she was satisfied with the sentence, but dismayed that Rhynes, who was 18 at the time of the incidents, didn't show remorse or indicate he understood he was part of a disturbing wider trend among teens.

"They're targeting the 12-year-old girls because these girls do not have the wherewithal to make the good decisions," the woman, who can't be identified, said outside the court house.

"We find that very disturbing that he has shown no remorse. We hope that maybe when he's sitting in jail for 45 days he'll have some time to think about that."

But John Mitchell, who represented Rhynes, said he took exception with the idea that his client was unrepentant. Mitchell argued that the hulking 215-pound catcher believed what he did was morally, not criminally wrong.

"His view is he made a moral mistake - he thought they were of legal age and therefore there was nothing criminal about it," he said.

At the time, Rhynes was a popular young athlete who made much of the fact that he was a 2003 draft pick and held a scholarship to a Florida college with a top-ranked baseball training program.

Rhynes was drafted in the 45th round of the annual draft. There are 50 rounds in the draft.

Orr said one of the girls doesn't believe Rhynes should have been charged and takes full responsibility for what happened. The other, however, said in a victim impact statement that she now realizes she "was taken advantage of."

"I feel people look at me differently. I'm not sweet, innocent anymore."

Testimony showed that the girls would arrange meetings, or 'hook up,' through Internet chat rooms and that people would meet at parties, friends' houses and in church parking lots.

The girls consented to the activity and Rhynes claims he was told by friends that they were over 14.

A longtime friend of Rhynes' said the sentence was far too severe and that he should never have been charged. His career has already suffered, he said, since he lost the scholarship to the Florida college.

"He made a mistake," said Brian Lewis, who used to train Rhynes. "He's a great kid. He's sorry, but he knows he didn't commit a crime."

The sordid tale has divided the area, with some blaming the girls and others seeing Rhynes as a predator of young, vulnerable youth trying to gain acceptance by way of an elite athlete.

One girl has endured rebukes at school and in the community for bringing the case to light and exposing disturbing revelations of routine sex acts by girls on the verge of adolescence.

"I'm angry that there's been so much community outlash toward the victims instead of the perpetrators," said the girl's aunt.

Mitchell said he would consider appealing the sentence and has already appealed the conviction. He was trying to have Rhynes released for Christmas.

© Copyright 2003 The Canadian Press


Now, here's what I think:

You write a story about grown men kidnapping and raping a young girl, okay.
But what if that young girl is your sister?
Or your daughter?

[sirthumper]

Hey Woodman'sgame,

Thanks for your concern about the description of my victim. I understand where you're coming from. Hopefully, this'll clarify why I chose that description of the girl.

A few years back, I was a pretty good college athlete and a University champ in Olympic weightlifting. (However, I was in the 147 lb. class, so the totals I achieved were nothing spectacular.)

ANYWAY, at the facility where I trained, I had the good fortune to train with many members of the University's women's gymnastic team. Let me tell you, those girls are FIT!! And so petite; positively adorable, and so strong, too!

Many of the girls were still quite small, despite their ages (17-22, generally). Several were a shade under 5'0" and under 100 lbs. too boot. Still, despite the size, they were stronger than most women 2X their size. Awesome.

Ya see, I've always had this thing for dainty female athletes. Their muscle tone is awesome. I'm sorry I didn't clarify that attraction in the details of my story idea. Thanks for calling me to task for being vague.

I simply made the girl in my story a wee bit tinier than the college gymnasts to account for her being a tad younger. That's all.

So ya see, my victim is a girl around 16, preferably petite, and hopefully a gymnast or cheerleader. Shame on me for not being more precise in the details!

That's all folks!

Sirthumper

[Curtis]

I'm probably gonna be sorry, but here goes.

I think Xue Lan's news story is an excellant one, because it demonstrates clearly the ambiguities that can crop up in situations like this. As I read it, it shows clearly that this ball player was the victim of two sexual predators. They professed to be of age, they approached him in a chat room, he made an attempt to verify their age -- I don't know what more could be expected of him.

Back when I was in my early twenties, I was at a party for company employees and their children. A pair of sisters at the party were coming on to anyone in long pants, and we spent some time together, getting friendly. Near the end of the party, their Mother approached me and asked, with a funny look on her face, how old I thought her daughters were? That was the first moment the alarm bells went off. I replied that I thought they were 17 and 18. She nodded, then informed me that they were 12 and 14 and would I please stop bothering them? Bothering THEM? THEY were bothering ME! And the worst part was that the 12 year old was the one I thought was 18. It never would have occured to me to try to verify their ages, because there was no doubt in my mind. (I still have nightmares where I'm being chased through the house where the party was held, by the mother carrying a gun.)

I have a female cousin who, when she was 12, used to go to parties at frat houses and do lines of coke. What was she doing in exchange for the cocaine? (Actually, it may not have been sex -- when she was 17, she was arrested for breaking into 150 cars over a weekend and stealing stereo systems.)

Of course, I'm not trying to say that all nubile femmes are predators, and Sirthumper's story is specifically about an innocent. On the other hand, my stories are all about real life people, while his story idea is FICTION.

If you're going to tell stories about women being raped and abused (as I know some of you have), how is it qualitatively different if the victim is 13 instead of 33? To mis-quote Xue Lan: What if that woman is your mother? What if she's your older sister? Rape is rape and, except for the increased chance of injury, it doesn't matter if the victim is 3 or 93, male or female. One rape is all rapes.

Now, it's wonderful that such an extended discussion has developed over Sirthumper's story idea, but this is the Story Ideas subsection of the Forum and I think he has sufficiently clairified his original precis, so we all know just what he had in mind. If anyone is interested in writing a story based on his idea, fine; if not, I'm sure there's another subsection more appropriate for this discussion to continue.

Merry Christmas

(P.S.: The other thread on this subject is much shorter. It's in the Comments and Suggestions subsection and is entitled 'Couple comments regarding BDSM Library'.)

[woodsman'sgame]

I want to clarify that age and size were not the only criteria I used. I also mentioned the victim's state of mind. Innocence of sexual knowledge is the biggest criteria! That is a child. A 25 year old retarded woman who is innocent of sexual knowledge would fall in this category also, no matter what her physical appearance. That is the biggest factor that makes the victim a child.

And yes, Curtis, you are right. We did get off the subject, but stories that involve underage characters always seem to hit a nerve for most of us and are in a category that the library will not tolerate.

[Kallie Thomas]

Originally posted by Xue Lan
Now, here's what I think:

You write a story about grown men kidnapping and raping a young girl, okay.
But what if that young girl is your sister?
Or your daughter?

Or you write a story about a car that comes to life and kills teenage boys. What if one of those boys was your brother? Your son?

Fiction. Isn't it great?

Kallie

[Kallie Thomas]

Originally posted by Aurelius
I normally try to keep out of discussion/argument threads, but I have an important question:

Is having sex with children, or abusing them considered to be a sub-category of BDSM activity?

(Personally I don't think so.)

I don't think it necessarily is, either--but is rape? I think that if rape is considered a sub-category, then the age of the victim in works of fiction involving rape should likely be left up to the author. If rape is not a legitimate subject to be written about on this site, an awful lot of stories don't belong here.

Of course, at this point, we're still not sure what consitutes a child. I think we all agree that if it toddles (and isn't drunk), it's not okay. But a 14 year old to many is a sexual creature, fair game for works of fiction. But for others, 14 is a babe, and not to be messed with, even in the confines of a story.

I think the best policy is one I've always employed--if I don't like it, I don't read it. There is a lot of material here that I find personally distasteful. I would never dog the author or ask that the particular genre be removed from the site (not saying you did that, only that it occurs on occasion), but I do exercise my right to not partake.

Personally, I think it's a good way to live online. After all, we are talking about stories, not children.

Kallie

[Aurelius]

Kallie. I share your live and let live viewpoint. And yes, real-life rape is at least as bad as (or possibly far worse than) consensual or coerced sexual activity with 'the underaged'.

I think that the concept of rape fantasy is strongly established facet in BDSM fiction, and is often inseparable from bondage fantasies.

I've occasionally run into underage stories on this site. The difference with the content of underaged stories (not necessarily sirthumper's nicely clarified example) is that the essence of the child's body and mind provides the primary object of the fantasy.

Kallie: I would never dog the author or ask that the particular genre be removed from the site

Agreed. It's not my site. But if this site ever became a recognised place for posting and reading underage sex stories, I'd be out of here.

[Cleo671]

Originally posted by Aurelius
Agreed. It's not my site. But if this site ever became a recognised place for posting and reading underage sex stories, I'd be out of here.

Great point.
There is a difference between BDSM amongst adults and
paedophilia.

[sirthumper]

Oh lordy, How I do love a healthy debate!

This is awesome that my story idea has generated so much spirited conversation. (Really, I do think so.) It has shown me a side of people that I find quite revealing. Most significantly, that a lot of people must have a bit of trouble recognizing a difference between fiction and reality.

As a writer of fiction, I have authored several stories involving widely diverse characters. Some are abused wives, children living in abusive homes, the indigent, and people who just can't seem to get their lives in order. The key ingredient of a good story is "conflict," and stories in which something prevents the protagonist from achieving their goal makes the story worth reading.

In my life, I'd venture to say I've read thousands of stories. In some of these stories, usually classed in the "horror" section of Barnes and Noble, there were graphic depictions of death, sexual abuse, and other depictions of violence. Yet, never once, did I mistakingly think that those depictions were literal preoccupations of the author. For example, I NEVER thought that just because Robert Bloch penned PSYCHO he must automatically have been a mother-fixated murderer - it never crossed my mind!

Yet, there seem to be a few - just a few! - people in this forum who genuinely believe that authors live out their literary fantasies! Wow! How bizarre! Granted, I admit, I enjoy a well-authored rape story now and then...but at soon as I finish the tale and my netsurfing, I usually simply turn off the computer and either go to work, go to bed, exercise, or read and write. I certainly don't slobber and drool and immediately start plotting and planning how to live-out the details of the story.

Puh-lease!!!!!!!!!!!!

For those people in this forum who have trouble recognizing the difference between fiction and fact - fantasy and reality - I'd stop reading ANY bdsm tales. As a matter of fact, I'd stop reading alltogether. The last thing this world needs is one more sicko like the deranged chump who read S. King's RAGE and then shot his teacher and held his class hostage.

If my story idea bothers you, dont write it. And if the topic gives you the willies, then don't read it.

My story idea remains this: a group of guys decide to kidnap and torment a teenaged girl. I hope the tale has a decent build-up, and displays exceptional literary skill. I'm hoping for something good, but I'll always appreciate the effort of any honest attempt.

And just to let you know: I have never penned an actual rape story. Despite the fact I've read maybe a dozen well-written rape stories in my life, I've never really had the desire to write one myself. I can think of maybe one or two similiar story ideas, but that's about all. Go figure.

Sirthumper

[Cleo671]

Originally posted by sirthumper
Oh lordy, How I do love a healthy debate!


As a writer of fiction, I have authored several stories involving widely diverse characters. Some are abused wives, children living in abusive homes, the indigent, and people who just can't seem to get their lives in order. The key ingredient of a good story is "conflict," and stories in which something prevents the protagonist from achieving their goal makes the story worth reading.

That was my point exactly. It's very easy to tell when a person is a writer from the very synopsis they write.
Therefore, you don't really need someone to write it for you do you?
And I'll even go further to say that your post was not even necessary. Your a writer, that was your idea, what did you need a survey of who would like it or who would not? The bottom line was you could have submitted it anyway.

You said it yourself, 'As a writer of fiction', then if we follow on these lines you could have penned your story yourself, you could have lodged it into the stories section, it would have been appropriately CODED, and then whoever wanted to read it could have read it.. so what's stopping you write it then?.. yes..I like to ask these types of questions, only to see what answer is forthcoming.

As for conflict Sirthumper? I hardly doubt that an 'innocent' 13 year old, who is portrayed as innocent and vulnerable poses as a 'conflict', it's rather like 'no contest' when a girl that age is pitted against 8-12 guys that want to gang rape her.

What are you going to have 'intellectual' depth with a 13 year old and 8-12 men, in order to have the 'conflict' ? As for the 'worth reading?' element? Oh please.