Submissive Terms?

[annie]

I had a conversation the other day with someone who asked me if it was possible for a submissive to have "terms" on their submission.

This person had been told by someone that if she put "terms" on her submission then she wasn't really submitting.

I do not know how the word "terms" was being defined by everyone else in the conversation... but from my definition of it terms means the limitations that the relationship requires.

So, based on that definition I wanted to toss that question out to everyone....

Is a sub truly submitting if she puts "terms" on her submission?

[John56{vg}]

Of course she is! To me it is all about fun for BOTH parties.

Limits and limitations HAVE to be taken into account always. The women that submit totally, everything and anything scare me and frankly if they don't scare me they bore me.

The person who told this person that there are no terms, is not a true Dom in my estimation. They are trying to lay an extreme and a dangerous power trip on the sub, IMHO.

I would tell your friend to run as fast as she can away.


Again, my humble opinion.

John

[gagged_Louise]

I'd agree, of course one should set terms. If you don't, you'd believe in some sort of mystical ability of the Dom to see at once just what the sub wants and is willing to do, and never to fail. I wouldn't accept a Dom/me who saw themselves as infallible like that, or who would totally deny the right to refuse doing a particular thing : pee play, rimming or having face slapped hard, for instance - or to have any limits (though I know some Doms would inisist that a sub is chattel,a piece of meat, and can really have no limits at all)

It's not like you know the Dominant full-on from teh beginning and I really would say any sub/slave merits the respect and dignity of a human being, a grown-up person.

[Warbaby1943]

I think she is submitting and by setting terms she knows her limits ahead of time. Of course over time these "terms" or limits may change so they should always remain negotiable.

[Hime]

I think she is submitting and by setting terms she knows her limits ahead of time. Of course over time these "terms" or limits may change so they should always remain negotiable.

Yeah, that's pretty much what I was going to say. When we started out, my Master and I had some very strict limits about what we were and weren't going to do, and since then they have relaxed somewhat. But it's only fair and honest to let your partner know what is and isn't "on the table."

[Logic1]

well ofcourse there should be terms. There is absolutely no question about it from my point of view anyways. A sub that wants me to decide absolutely everything will just like John both scare and bore me.
I sure dont want to do anything to my sub that she isnt willing to do (yes ofcourse push the limits but you do that in every relationship).

whoever said that to your friend would be somebody I would recommend her to back away from. It sure isnt safe for the sub and it isnt really safe to submit to somebody without any limits or terms.

There are contracts to use if needed. Show her them (and even whoever said it to your friend).

I have said it in other threads: Submission is a gift from the sub to the Dom and and not the other way around. That gift is a very powerful and honoring thing to get from somebody.

I think I am gonna leave it at that for now. Might add some things later though.

[mysc]

If a sub doesn't set any terms for a D/s relationship and follows the Dom blindly you can't call her/him human anymore I think... then it's just a sheep without a will of his/her own. And , like John said, that also scares me. I've known a sub like that and she was very happy in the beginning (I don't have to choose anymore, no more clothes, food, etc.. I will follow him blindly). They had there own contract which stated that she was now his, and she gave up her free will (and ofcourse the safety issues). And I expressed my concern about that, and she laughed at me and said "I trust him". Well that was untill he wanted more into the pain area, and she wasn't into pain at all....
He (and she agreed so he has his point) told her that he had every right to do this because she signed the contract, she obviously got scared and turned it all back. Luckely this Dom was experienced and destroyed the contract and both made up a new one with terms. The Dom (a real good friend of mine) just wanted to teach her a lesson, she wanted to give up everything, and he just gave in after alot of talks and discussions....

So to make a long story short... I agree with everybody who replied

[Rhabbi]

Definately.

I really do not understand the debate about this at all. This attitude seems prevalent among the "Gor" crowd, but limits always exist, and should be clearly defined. Submission is a gift, but it is not like a keychain or a bracelet. It is a living thing and needs to be cherished.

[His_blizzard]

This attitude seems prevalent among the "Gor" crowd

I beg to differ with you Rhabbi. Perhaps some Gorean's expect such a thing but I would suspect these are more the online roleplaying Goreans and is not the case for RL Gorean's such as Master and myself. I don't mean any disrepect, but Gorean's tend to get a very bad rap because of the way we are represented in online Gorean forums and chatrooms. Many in those rooms have never even read a single book. Sorry to get up on my soapbox here, but this is a very sensitive subject to me. Although in this lifestyle we strive to be non judgmental, no one seems to think twice about bashing the Goreans. Just my two copper tarns worth, ~blizz~

[Rhabbi]

I beg to differ with you Rhabbi. Perhaps some Gorean's expect such a thing but I would suspect these are more the online roleplaying Goreans and is not the case for RL Gorean's such as Master and myself. I don't mean any disrepect, but Gorean's tend to get a very bad rap because of the way we are represented in online Gorean forums and chatrooms. Many in those rooms have never even read a single book. Sorry to get up on my soapbox here, but this is a very sensitive subject to me. Although in this lifestyle we strive to be non judgmental, no one seems to think twice about bashing the Goreans. Just my two copper tarns worth, ~blizz~

My apologies about bashing the Gorean lifestyle, that was not my intent. I have met a few offline Goreans and this is the general attitude they represent, and that is what I based my judgement upon. Plus, I must admit, some online Gorean posts that I have read.

I read the Gor books as a teenager, but quickly left them behing because, IMO, Norman spent more time talking about the philosophy of slavewry then developing his stories. As it was his book, he certainly had a write to do that, but I had an equal right to spend my limited funds on books I enjoyed more.

Having said that, I have often been confused where the Goreans get the idea that slavery is about no limits. The rules were strict, but they applied equally to the Master and the slave. I still think that a no limits relationship is more fantasy than reality. And even if it was real, it would take years to develop the necessary trust and mutual knowledge. Even then, it is limited because slavery is illegal in most countries.

I love the fantasy of a full time, no limit slave, but it will always be a fantasy.

[annie]

That is what both of us (the subs) thought in the conversation and we both felt he wasn't worth the time.

But... wanted to make sure I wasn't missing something in thought process so I tossed it out there!

[Warbaby1943]

That is what both of us (the subs) thought in the conversation and we both felt he wasn't worth the time.

But... wanted to make sure I wasn't missing something in thought process so I tossed it out there!

Annie you always did have a great head on your shoulders.

[SayaNereida]

In the short time I’ve been purusing the boards (although new here, I belong to other like sites), I’m absolutely amazed that this idea and question is posted as often as I’ve seen.

I have to wonder what it is that makes so many believe that this type is relationship is so different from any other in our/their lives?

For instance, marriage/LTR, some have intimate relations every day, some once a week, some once a month, some special occasions and some that do not have that as part of their relationship at all. That is the ‘terms’/limits they set for their relationship.

If one has terms/limits that make another say or believe they are not sub/dom/whatever, the truth is, the person with the limits may not be the correct sub/dom/whatever for you; but does not mean the are not sub/dom/whatever.

I believe, every relationship in our lives has limits/terms, place by one or both within the relationship.

[annie]

If one has terms/limits that make another say or believe they are not sub/dom/whatever, the truth is, the person with the limits may not be the correct sub/dom/whatever for you; but does not mean the are not sub/dom/whatever.

That is a good point... you are right, they may still be a Dom/me and just not the right one for that person. A word of caution though, they may also be an abuser/wannabe, who truly doesn't have a clue and doesn't want one or care...

Just something to watch out for....

[Austerus]

No sub without a death wish should ever agree to "no terms at all." No terms quite literally means that your right to -live- is in the hands of someone else. Does that have a certain fantasy appeal? Sure, but so do a lot of the NC/Reluctant/Blackmail stories on the site, but most of us would (I hope) consider those things anathema RL.

Although generalizations usually aren't worth the disk drive space it takes to store them, I'm going to go ahead an risk putting my foot in my mouth by saying anyone who demands (seriously, not in cases like this perhaps where it was to teach a lesson) "no terms" is either an HNG who is living out a fantasy in their head rather than thinking things through, or is a predator of some kind. It's bad news.

[Flaming_Redhead]

Of course a submissive is truly submitting if she/he puts terms on her/his submission! *rme* I'm not rolling my eyes at you, annie, but at the necessity of even asking such a thing. Maybe the dominant in this case is actually looking for a slave and not a submissive. Though some people use the terms interchangably, in my mind there is a huge difference. Anyone who can go into a relationship with no limits is either very brave or very foolish. I found this link to a submissive's bill of rights when I bumped an old thread on contracts.

http://http://wizdomme.com/infopack/subrights.shtml

[Austerus]

Flaming-Redhead,

I agree that if there is a line there, it is somewhere beyond submissive and into the slave category. But is the line even there? Shouldn't it be further out? The watchwords of the community, which we all shout loudly at naysayers and critics, are Safe, Sane, and Consensual. Is it possible for a relationship with -no- terms to satisfy the terms Safe and Sane? And if it does not satisfy Sane, then it is possible to satisfy Consensual?

I guess I just really feel that the realm of "no limits, no terms" is one for fictional fantasy and for truly dangerous, unhealthy relationships. I hate to sound judgmental toward the kettle, particularly as my own pot is most certainly a mighty dark shade, but does anyone here honestly think that -no- limits is ever a good idea?

[TomOfSweden]

What's the difference between terms and hard limits? Nobody would ever question those, would they?

[annie]

What's the difference between terms and hard limits? Nobody would ever question those, would they?

In my mind there is a difference... although VERY slight it is there.

Limits is what I don't enjoy... hard limits what I won't participate in. Guess the word "limit" is focused more on the play aspect of it in a way for me. Such as a hard limit for me is tickling... won't do it,

Terms are more of a "what will/won't work" in the relationship. Such as, I have to be home by a certain time each day for the kids... there fore I would NEVER accept a task that would prevent that from happening. That is a term I would place up front on the relationship, and make sure the Dom understood first and foremost before moving ahead with any relationship.

You are correct, the phrase is interchangeable to me in many ways... but to me a "limit" may be pushed (and in some ways those are expected to be pushed a tiny bit) but a "term" is a firm fact that i, as the submissive, felt it was necessary establish in the relationship, therefore taking any "control" aspect away from the Dom on that one issue. Not that I wouldn't negotiate, if it was appropriate, but it would probably be limited at best.

So now that I have mudded that even further....

Thanks for all the great comments... keep 'em coming!

[Sir_Russell]

annie, some people say that a slave once committed to a Master has no limitations no rights. That is hogwash. The sub needs to establish her limits and so does the Dom.

Limits or terms are there for both parties protection and well being. You were right that the "Dom" was not really a Dom but a wannabee or worse an abuser poser.

[gagged_Louise]

It also matters o have terms that are more of the nature "just what does the Dom decide"/how do we arbitrate things if there is trouble or misunderstanding?" because in any relation the unforeseen reality will step in (annie you're onto this with the example of getting your children). If the Dom is suddenly away for some time (contact breaks off in an online bond, or he falls ill in a live-in/r/l relation) then what happens? If you have a totally no-limits, no-checks relation that would just leave many things hanging in the air because the Dom can't be in charge and doesn't even say "you can handle this".

[Sir_Russell]

I would like to expound on WB comment.

Not only should we revisit limits often but we should revisit negotiation and our contract often. If you have reached the stage where a long term contract has been agreed to it doesn't meant that you can't redo this contract to take into effect any new issue not properly covered.

To gagged louise I have set house rules and a set of tenants to guide her by in my absense or sickness. She agrees to and signs off on all of them during contracting.

his blizzard I don't want to upset you if you are having a good life living by Gor then it is great for you and I am happy for you. I myself would not be interested due to friends that have tried to live this life style and have been hurt, harmed by it. But that is what makes the world go round and I think it says more about your relationship with your Master then it does about Gor.

[TomOfSweden]

I would like to expound on WB comment.

Not only should we revisit limits often but we should revisit negotiation and our contract often. If you have reached the stage where a long term contract has been agreed to it doesn't meant that you can't redo this contract to take into effect any new issue not properly covered.

To gagged louise I have set house rules and a set of tenants to guide her by in my absense or sickness. She agrees to and signs off on all of them during contracting.

his blizzard I don't want to upset you if you are having a good life living by Gor then it is great for you and I am happy for you. I myself would not be interested due to friends that have tried to live this life style and have been hurt, harmed by it. But that is what makes the world go round and I think it says more about your relationship with your Master then it does about Gor.

I think a Gorean lifestyle has limits to. It has to have. Just because a couple is very good at communicating so they don't need limits written on a piece of paper doesn't mean the Master can do what he wants. My slave often says that I can do what I want with her, but I know my slave can't do all I want. So we have natural and tacit limits.

And a very hard limit is love. In all relationships we always wish to maximise the well being for our significant other. Sadist, Master or slave. This always sets a very hard floor to what the Master can do. Right?

[His_blizzard]

his blizzard I don't want to upset you if you are having a good life living by Gor then it is great for you and I am happy for you. I myself would not be interested due to friends that have tried to live this life style and have been hurt, harmed by it. But that is what makes the world go round and I think it says more about your relationship with your Master then it does about Gor.

I think a Gorean lifestyle has limits too

I wrote the following in a PM to someone so as not to hijack this thread any further, but now I feel the need to add it to this thread to explain my "Gorean" union with my Master:

Master and I consider ourselves Gorean in many ways, but like any other school of D/s we make it fit our beliefs and our life outside of the D/s community. Although I did enjoy all of the books, Master believes that after the first 5, Norman gave in to his publishers and his writings were weaker. We take many of the principals and ideas from those books and apply them to us as Master sees fit and what I am comfortable with. For example, I am sure you have heard me say that Master no longer desires a slave, and I do not wish to be one, so I am his kajira-missive. I wanted a brand but Master thinks that they are unsafe and can be unsightly so I will be getting a version of a brand; a tattoo of his choosing. He respects the fact that I don't do ink that shows except in a bathing suit so those terms were accepted. We have limits and a safe word, but his word is final and I agree to that. He is a kind Master, but in the Gorean tradition if I disobey or if I am disrespectful, punishment is swift and harsh. This does not mean it is always physical either. More often than not it is in the form of grueling research writing assignments with bibliographies. Ewww!
I won't take up anymore of your time with this. I just get so upset because Gor can be so grossly misunderstood. Just like many religions, werein each one has many different groups that range from liberal to fanatical conservatives, so are us Goreans. Sigh... It is like living in New Jersey. I know my state is beautiful and I am lucky to live here, but I have given up trying to defend it to those that know nothing about it except what the late night comedians say to make fun of it, and they take that to heart.
Gor and NewJersey: If you have to ask you wouldn't understand. LOL!
I hope this helps explain a bit better where I am coming from in the Gorean community. I know Gor is not a "real" planet, but I sure would love to ride a Tarn. "Peace" ~blizz~

[nk_lion]

A sub without terms and conditions would probably be someone I either extremely devoted to bdsm, or someone without any common sense.

Subs with terms actually is good imo since it shows that she can think and explore, and that she knows her limits that can be pushed, and limits that are not to be touched

[Guest 91108]

so much could be said in this thread on the Gor comments ..

[Platonicus]

Generally speaking, whether reduced to writing or not a D/s relationship is very much a contractual matter between the partners and of course contracts always have terms. I would be wary of a submissive who came to the table with "no terms" or of a Dominant who would try to convince a submissive that they were not truly submissive if they had any "terms" (i.e. limits).