Punishment Vs. Play

I searched the forums first for this topic, but didn't find. I'm sorry if I missed it and am reposting.

Age-old question, I know, but I am curious as what people believe about the notion I have heard many times that punishment is different from play. Punishment should not be enjoyable (by either party, I suppose).

However, I find that I enjoy the concept of being punished- not the idea of sincerely upsetting Master, no... but i don't know, there's an emotional release, I suppose, of being brought back into my boundaries, besides of course, the sexual turn-on of being spanked or having my hair pulled, etc...

But I still found I got Master's point, when He was making one, even though I enjoyed the punishment.

What do other subs/ slaves, Masters/ Mistresses/ Dom/mes think?

I've not heard too many subs say they enjoy a punishment, but the way you argue it, it sounds normal to me. At the end of a punishment, when you know the slate is clean with your master, I can't see a problem with enjoying that part of it. As you say, you didn't enjoy upsetting him and you learned your lesson; added to that, you saw the difference between play and punishment.

Qmoq x

In my opinion, punishment isn't meant to be enjoyable. Play is meant to be enjoyable. Punishment may involve certain elements of play, but it's meant to serve as a reminder that a boundary was crossed and there are reprocussions for that action. Punishment is hard on both the submissive and the Dominant. It shouldn't be pleasureable for either party.

I suppose though that it is possible to enjoy a punishment if the point of the punishment was understood. Punishment doesn't have to involve elements of enjoyable play though, (spanking...etc) it can be entirely mental, or entirely physical, or a combination of both.

I think it depends on the individuals and the love and trust they share between them. It also depends on what the punishment is and the action that brought about the punishment.

mari,

Just my 2 cents on this, please feel free to disregard if you disagree. Since I'm a masochist, spanking is rarely a punishment, because I enjoy it too much. Sometimes it is, and the look in his eyes, or his tone, attitude, etc. is what really brings me back in line. And sometimes it is nice to have a physical reminder that will last beyond hearing about his disappointment with me. (I like bruises, for this reason!) I've said it elsewhere before (I think) that for me, the worst "punishments" aren't physical, but small annoying/repetitive tasks or a simple lack of contact. Being ignored is an almost instant attitude adjuster.
And as for the "clean slate" feeling at the end of a punishment...I completely agree. Sometimes if I feel I've done something wrong (even if he doesn't think so) being punished helps me get my head back on straight. I know I like to push buttons/boundaries, to see what I can get away with--and I like it far better when he catches me and brings me back in line that when I *really* get away with something.
But that's just me...like I said, feel free to ignore or disagree with me!

I haven't been punished (yet) but I know that the worst thing He could do is to ignore me. That would be horrible. Like firefly, I'm a masochist, so physical pain would simply be a wonderful reward, unless he pushed me past my limits. Since he hasn't begun to even approach my limits, I don't think it'll happen anytime soon!

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Originally Posted by his_j

I haven't been punished (yet) but I know that the worst thing He could do is to ignore me. That would be horrible. Like firefly, I'm a masochist, so physical pain would simply be a wonderful reward, unless he pushed me past my limits. Since he hasn't begun to even approach my limits, I don't think it'll happen anytime soon!

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Yeah, my least-favorite (all too frequent) conversation here:

"Hey, stop back-talking me!"
"Ooh, are you going to have to punish me?"
"Yes. By withholding sex."

I hate that! grrr.

In all seriousness, there is a fine line. Knowing that I've disappointed him is really the punishment, I think -- the actual act of punishment is more like part of the forgiveness. One of the things I find most comforting about D/s is knowing that if I do something wrong, I'll be punished for it, but I will also be forgiven and taken back. That cycle is very reassuring to me.

And hey, firefly -- nice avatar! :)

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Originally Posted by Hime

"Hey, stop back-talking me!"
"Ooh, are you going to have to punish me?"
"Yes. By withholding sex."

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Gasp - that's just cruel...but effective. I don't know if withholding sex would work for us - he just likes it too much, the punishment would be as bad for him as me. Hmmm, now I have to think about what punishment would be least painful for him and most painful for me...

I agree pain is something I like, and to be punished in that way would be an ineffective thing.
I would think that a Master would have to look at punishments as a trial and error method. A punishment would have to be something the sub loathes, whether it would involve some sort of pain, or boring task, etc...
This is my own opinion, but even a punishment that is used often can eventually turn into something the sub starts to enjoy. So I would assume that punishments would have to be varied and more intense as time goes on.

I had a custom task created for me at the academy to get rid of bad habits I have formed over the years; seeing that I have a crabby, stubborn and defiant attitude, I was given a lot of punishments, that involved quite a bit of pain methods. Over time though the punishment became a more tolerable and enjoyable thing.
Silly me admitted that fact and the punishments had to become more difficult and painful. I was also made to do something I loathed completely and still do. So the one punishment, I will never enjoy became an effective method for doing what I supposed to do.

I'm glad to see someone finally admitting they like to be punished. I had some discussion about this very topic awhile back and was more or less told I was nuts by the person I said I thought she enjoyed being punished because she misbehaved so often. It is refreshing to see such honesty.

Have never had to punish AG and really don't think I ever will just so you know it is not her I am talking about.

Warbaby,

I hear what you're saying. I know there are times that I've been like the sub you were describing...mouthing off to get "punished". I will certainly be the first to admit that I like to push the line between playing at misbehaving and *really* misbehaving, just to see what I can get away with. Punishment is like that, too. If all I get when I'm acting up is a swat on the ass, then I know he's not taking my misbehavior seriously (either it didn't bother him or he knew I was only playing at being naughty). On the other hand, just the right sort of look or a quick, sharp word can immediately bring all playfulness to a halt and get me back in line, pronto.
Okay...I think I'm done with the rambling comments for the day! *zips lips*

Knowing that I've disappointed him is really the punishment, I think -- the actual act of punishment is more like part of the forgiveness.

Great point, Hime!! Never thought of that... but I think that makes a lot of sense...

I never thought of myself as much of a masochist (i guess a lot of us say that, but it's true!), but Master recently enlightened me to the fact that if I happen to be going dry on Him (He can go for a long time), He just chokes me or slaps me and I'm instantly wet! Had no idea... lol...

That said, i must wholeheartedly agree with firefly and his_j- having to suffer Master's absence would be unbearable or to have to forego any kink... so, hmm... don't know if He's figured that out, lol, but sure He has... but on both of those, I know it would be hard on Him as well-
So of course I brought this point up to Him... and His response was that He would be even doubly disappointed in me- that because of me He would have to be w/o me.

I can understand that because I think about my son- I hate having to punish him- I lose out too (whether I have to spank him or take away something that was going to be fun for both of us).

I realized too recently that I think sometimes I misbehave, not directly to get punished, but because I fear if I don't misbehave, then I won't get spanked or whatever other kinky thing I need in my life. But I guess there's a better way to approach that, e.g. "Master, please would You beat me or choke me a little? a lot!" ok... working on it... lol

mari,

I got asked something very similar the other day...do I misbehave on purpose to get punished? It's a whole 'nother can of worms, isn't it? I'd say I don't do it consciously...but like you said, there are times when I want something, and for some reason instead of doing the logical thing (asking for it), my brain short-circuits and I end up pushing a button that I know will get a response I don't like. I suppose some part of my brain finds "negative" attention better than no attention at all. I know I need to work on it (in a big way!)--but sometimes having it pointed out to me (when I'm being difficult/disobedient) is enough. I *really* don't want to disappoint him, even though I'm sure it must seem like it, sometimes.

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Originally Posted by ^firefly^

mari,

I got asked something very similar the other day...do I misbehave on purpose to get punished? It's a whole 'nother can of worms, isn't it? I'd say I don't do it consciously...but like you said, there are times when I want something, and for some reason instead of doing the logical thing (asking for it), my brain short-circuits and I end up pushing a button that I know will get a response I don't like. I suppose some part of my brain finds "negative" attention better than no attention at all. I know I need to work on it (in a big way!)--but sometimes having it pointed out to me (when I'm being difficult/disobedient) is enough. I *really* don't want to disappoint him, even though I'm sure it must seem like it, sometimes.

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Now I wonder if it would really be disappointing or maybe just looked at as another aspect of a relationship. There is no way in hell two people can see eye to eye 100% of the time. Though I may not like something or disagree with it completely I still don't see myself being disappointed in her behavior if it is truly in her nature to act in a manner consistent with how she is feeling at the time.

Maybe I'm just too easy going but that is how I feel. This is not in the least to say that if and when she needs punished she won't get it because she will and already knows what to expect as punishment. Still I don't think she would disappoint me at all. I don't know about others but I actually try to get AG to screw up so I can have reason to punish her. So far that hasn't happened. Maybe that is why I see no disappointment on my part. I know she would be disappointed in herself for what she perceives as failure but I really don't see myself being disappointed in her at all.

Devil and I had a discussion with Red and Voodoo Man about this very thing the other night at dinner. Red and I both said that the intent on behalf of the Dom regarding the act of discipline is what determined whether we considered it play or punishment. A little swat on the ass after saying something a bit bratty is enjoyable, call that play for us. A little swat on the ass after saying something a bit bratty coupled with a serious frown from our Dom is not enjoyable at all, that's punishment. Just the idea of thinking we caused disappointment was bad enough for us to consider it punishment. (Although Red does seem to seek additional reinforcement at times.)

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Originally Posted by mari<MSBermes>

but i don't know, there's an emotional release, I suppose, of being brought back into my boundaries

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I think you nailed it right there...boundaries. We like them, like knowing they are there and that our Dom will reign us back in when necessary...that we can't get away with all the brattiness, and if we try, our Dom will call us on it. That's the enjoyable part, the part that makes us feel safe and protected. Would that be accurate to say?

Just a few thoughts.

tessa:wave:

I agree with you guys. Disappointing your Dom is probably one of the worst feelings in the world. I think it's a lot like self punishment, you know you did something to upset him and it can really take a toll on your mental state.

Sure we all act a little bratty just to get those swats that we love, but we know when we've crossed the line and we feel it. It's an awful feeling to know that you're a disappointment.

For me Punishment vs. Play is a fine line. When a sub gets out of line I lament the pain i have to deal, without its connective pleasure of me also enjoying whats going on. I have found that expressing my did pleasure generally corrects the error, but if not the punishment is definatly different from my play.

I disagree punishment can be enjoyable for the smart Dom/Master. I know what she fears and what embarrasses her and I use both of them for punishment. There are times that I would love for her to do something she truly doesn't ever want to do so this then falls into an area of punishment reserved for larger transgressions. Is the evil and selfish, hello I am a Dom.

Russell,

Thank you for that very honest and insightful answer.
From your posts, you remind me much of Master and how He thinks...
So now, you've given me some food for thought... as I do consider Him a very smart person and master.
I know He enjoyed the time I was thinking of in particular when I started this thread- but I still did get the point! and have modified my behaviors since...

And here is a story I wrote about the time:

http://www.bdsmlibrary.com/forums/sh...ad.php?t=10114

I don't think I'd ever like to be seriously punished in any way. For me, seriousness of any kind is just that - serious. If I ever did something that seriously upset anybody, it would never be deliberate. I'd therefore need that transgression explained to me and that would be enough for it not to happen again. Once explained, and when we're both reconciled on the matter, punishment could occur, but it would be play.

defining punishment in my own head has to happen because if the punisher believes in useing canes and such for the punishment impliment, they wont get the desired effect nor will i be able to determine when punishment is actually that.

i need clear cut lines where this is the case...punishment is used to right my wrong doings, its NOT a good thing, so how can it be enacted in play? play is play, punishment is punishment and in my mind they dont cross at all, ever.

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I never thought of myself as much of a masochist (i guess a lot of us say that, but it's true!), but Master recently enlightened me to the fact that if I happen to be going dry on Him (He can go for a long time), He just chokes me or slaps me and I'm instantly wet! Had no idea... lol.

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who needs lube when its on tap...smiles, isnt life grand...

This is an interesting question, in my opinion punishment should not be enjoyable as that surely defeats the objective. Punishment must begin in the mind. If as a sub you feel you have displeased your D and he/she then explains or demonstrates his/her displeasure…I can think of nothing more upsetting. Frankly, when I’ve been spanked or whipped as punishment I’ve walked away with a smile on my face, simply because it fed my masochistic tendencies.

So, as others have said, for me punishment is more about mental punishment by my partner than physical pain say. If a D is trying to communicate his/her displeasure at an action or deed then lifting a crop would not necessarily prevent me from doing that deed again…rather if my D lifted it and then placed it away in the wardrobe, perhaps a slow, sad shake of the head with no words spoken…my heart would break and I would be begging for forgiveness at their feet! “Please…whip me…beat me…please punish me…”

Like a few people who've commented here, I've always foudn that being ignored is a harsh form of punishment - and I know I've done wrong. And I don't like it either.

Something else that I've experienced is being given a l-o-n-g task to do, as my Master knows I have a criminally short attention span. For example, I once had to mow our lawn with a pair of kitchen scissors. I love the first 5 minutes, but the next 1.5 hours wasn't so good.

So I think picking on a personality trait like that in a sub can help to find an effective form of real punishment.

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Originally Posted by anonymouse

I don't think I'd ever like to be seriously punished in any way. For me, seriousness of any kind is just that - serious. If I ever did something that seriously upset anybody, it would never be deliberate. I'd therefore need that transgression explained to me and that would be enough for it not to happen again. Once explained, and when we're both reconciled on the matter, punishment could occur, but it would be play.

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I've felt this way too, but what Hime said really put a different perspective on it for me. Try thinking of it as penance, rather than punishment. It's not retaliation for a misdeed, it's something you do to earn forgiveness.

To me, at least, that makes the whole idea much more palatable. Thanks, Hime! ^_^

I have to go with Eponine's idea. Thus far I think that I would actually enjoy a punishment, but I would get the point, as long as the punishment wasn't too enjoyable. Say, being teased and not allowed to cum for a series of hours or days. The simple disappointment would probably stop me from doing whatever it was again.

I have actually never been punished before in a bdsm sense, so I am not really sure. I have had my little day dreams about it though. My own ideas for it....

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Originally Posted by tessa

Devil and I had a discussion with Red and Voodoo Man about this very thing the other night at dinner. Red and I both said that the intent on behalf of the Dom regarding the act of discipline is what determined whether we considered it play or punishment. A little swat on the ass after saying something a bit bratty is enjoyable, call that play for us. A little swat on the ass after saying something a bit bratty coupled with a serious frown from our Dom is not enjoyable at all, that's punishment. Just the idea of thinking we caused disappointment was bad enough for us to consider it punishment. (Although Red does seem to seek additional reinforcement at times.) I think you nailed it right there...boundaries. We like them, like knowing they are there and that our Dom will reign us back in when necessary...that we can't get away with all the brattiness, and if we try, our Dom will call us on it. That's the enjoyable part, the part that makes us feel safe and protected. Would that be accurate to say?

Just a few thoughts.

tessa:wave:

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I concur with your assessment, Tessa. My brattiness is nothing more than attention-seeking behavior. If I get VoodooMan to swat my ass, I giggle. If he swats my ass and gives me "the look," my insides feel as if they're shattering into a million tiny pieces. It's never a harsh word that I want, really. There are a myriad of reasons why I might "misbehave." The first and most obvious is to push buttons just to see what will happen. Once I know what happens, I'm satisfied. I now know when he's serious and when he's not. I then try not to antagonize him (too much). However, if I've been a good girl for a bit too long and get bored....walking the line and doing just fine....I begin to crave that feeling I get when he goes all domly on me. *ggls* As I've stated in another thread, I'm a fear junkie. I need that rush of adrenaline that comes when he has me trapped...nowhere to run...when denial of being bratty is called out as a deliberate lie and my face goes a whiter shade of pale...when he sees my fear and gives that evil little grin which tells me that he knows that I know that he knows....when I hesitate to do what he's told me to do because I know it's not going to be very pleasant and then hear "the Dom voice" telling me to do it NOW...when I'm begging him for mercy though I know I should have none...and when he follows through on his threat instead of letting me go...OMFG!!!! I just need that sometimes. It's very reassuring in that it tells me he cares what I do, pays attention to what I do and means what he says. Punishment, for me, (except the "I'm disappointed in you" speech) is positive reinforcement. I once laughed my ass off after a punishment (in my car, all by myself) from the sheer joy that came from knowing that VoodooMan is not one to use idle threats. It's such an incredible relief to be with someone who means what he says! *smiles angelically and scampers off to think of fun things to do to VoodooMan while she's sick*