a subtle question of perspective I think!

This is a rather involved question which has many facets and which, I hope, will lead to some deep thought, indepth discussion and solid information exchange.

In a conversation with precious we touched on the subject of objectification. The discussion was short, but it did start the mental gears turning. (Yes, there was smoke and a nauseous smell) As I pondered this several questions came to my mind.

First, is there a difference in humiliation, degradation, dehumanization, and objectification from the standpoint of a BDSM relationship?

If there is a difference, how do you define those differences?

Within those difference, if there are any, how does one incorporate these into a BDSM relationship and how does it affect the dynamic of that relationship?

I am also curious as to how the perspective of orientation (Dom, Sub, Top, Bottom) affects the view of the use of this type of play in a BDSM relationship?

Ok. . . . . I have my own opinions about this, but I am going to refrain from tossing them out until some others have put out a few thoughts. I want to use my thoughts and opinions to prod and tweak the discussion along.

TDS

Wow. When you ask a question, you mean business. This is quite fascinating to ponder on, actually. And I'm going to throw my thoughts out there- not that I have so much to offer, but simply because I can...open forum and all.

In my opinion, there is a difference in each of the terms you mentioned. And whether they have a place in a BDSM relationship would be decided by the persons involved, I suppose. Since to my way of thinking there are differences, the definitions would vary. (I'll be using M/f examples, not to leave anyone out, but because it's what I know.)

Humiliation, in my less than experienced point of view, is more for the mutual enjoyment of a Dominant and a submissive. For example, the Dominant likes to show his submissive off. The submissive enjoys being shown off. To flavor that up a bit, the Dominant require his sub to go sans panties while wearing that too short skirt, knowing what will happen and what will be seen when she so much as leans forward half an inch. Sure, she's going to groan out loud when she has to bend over and basically expose herself, but she's getting off on it, too. From my submissive perspective, I think humiliation is a necessary component in a BDSM relationship, when used to ascribe the power a Dominant has over his submissive. Well, it would be for me, anyway.

Degredation, again from my perspective, is humiliation but with misery thrown in the mix. Misery for the submissive, that is. This wouldn't be just for the double fun of it. My definition has it leaning more towards punishment- not a flirty, easy spanking type punishment, but something more sinister, something meant to teach a harsh lesson. I think it would depend on the dynamic of the D/s relationship as to how and when this was utilized.

Objectification, when done sexually, is to see someone as only a sexual, well, object. It could be the whole person is viewed as such- the term 'fuck-toy' comes to mind. So does "just a hole to fuck". Or perhaps this is where specific body part fetishes come into play- foot fetish, breast fetish- whatever particular fetish it may be. There is also the idea of treating the person as an actual object- submissive used as a table or a chair, maybe as a coat rack? The ideas are only limited to the imagination and the willingness of the participants.

Dehumanization is objectification gone very, very wrong. My opinion, remember? My definition for this term means to strip a person of his or her inherent worth, all while psychologically tearing that person down and leaving a soul feeling worthless, less than nothing even. As I see it, this has no place in any type relationship as its only purpose is to harm and damage.

Thank you for this question, TDS! I look forward to reading yours and others' responses.

tessa :wave:

Tessa,
THanks for you input and your thoughts. THey show considerable thought and a quite logically based. Before I add my two cents to my own questions, I would like to hear from some others.

TDS

I enjoy 'humiliation' in play and always have, though it's only recently I became comfortable to admit that. The discomfort actually was borne out of the fact I used to confuse humiliation with degradation and, as Tessa has said, degradation has 'misery' factored in. I enjoy the rush of adrenelin when I'm embarrassed -- I don't like to feel miserable.

If I can add a couple of things to Tessa definitions, objectification can also mean acting as furniture for the dominant. For me, acting as a table is humiliating but fun -- acting as an ashtray is too degrading for me and thus I wouldn't do it (I hate the smell of cigarettes at the best of times).

Dehumanization doesn't necessarily have to be all bad. For example, being forced to do mindlessly boring, repetitive tasks can be dehumanizing and it features prominently in teacher/student role plays where the sub is forced to write lines. Since 'boring' equates with 'miserable' for me, my preference would be to avoid such punishments. Dehumanizing can also include puppy/pony play. I especially love puppy play within certain bounds. Collar/leash and puppy 'tail' are all fun humiliations -- eating real dog food from a bowl degrading and a hard limit for me.

So, as Tessa mentioned, 'humiliation' is like the umbrella term for the other three. However, I've known people who routinely do things that I'd say were thoroughly degrading and yet, they don't necessarily feel it's even humiliation. I can't explain it because it's a different head space than I've ever been in. Somebody else, if extreme humiliation is their thing, may be better able than me to explain it.

anonymouse

In a BDSM aspect, humiliation, degradation, dehumanization and objectification can be one and the same, because basically they are all interconnected in some way with one another.
One persons likes, may be another’s humiliation, while another may deem it to be degrading, and so on.

I do believe though that you can separate the differences and define them to a certain degree...
Humiliation and degradation can almost have the same meaning really.
Humiliation involves such a broad scope and is so open ended that you can not really define it correctly. It is what each individual perceives it to be. The word degradation has a much stronger tone and I would akin it to be the next step or level of humiliation.

Objectification and dehumanization can as well have the same meaning, but objectification is using another for their sexual attributes and denying their existence as a person with feelings and emotions. Dehumanization again is just a stronger word, but would be the next step after objectification.
Objectification would be using someone for your own self gratification, and while dehumanization runs along the same lines, I tend to see this as a longer drawn out process.

When I look at incorporating all of these into a BDSM relationship, I see it as a step by step process, starting first with humiliation and going from there.

I’ll give an example of humiliation started on a physical level, and progressing to a stronger experience.
Start with spanking, it can be fun, but to some a humiliating experience, progressing into face slapping, which may be a bit more humiliating, progressing again into spitting or urinating on the face, which may be degrading, and then dehumanizing by having strangers do these things to you, or being mocked by others while you are being humiliated.

I don’t know if this is the greatest example but it was the best I could think of.

As far as dynamics go, I cannot really say. A relationship will be strengthened or weakened depending on the level of trust, communication and how far someone is willing to push their own limits, and as well how much they enjoy those limits being pushed.

I consider myself to be a humiliation junkie. The more I experiment with it, the more I enjoy my limits being pushed. My perceptions of humiliation change with every different experience. As for a Dom’s perspective, I have no clue; I have never pondered nor asked what the significance or the experience is like.

I am looking forward to hearing more thoughts on this topic.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TheDeSade

First, is there a difference in humiliation, degradation, dehumanization, and objectification from the standpoint of a BDSM relationship?

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First I'd like to point out that in a BDSM relationship they are all bullshit. At least if we take them litterarilly. Masters care about their slaves, (or should if something hasn't gone terribly wrong).

It's not down to actually dehumanising or degrading, only about conveying that feeling to the slave, (and then back to the Master). So whatever does the trick and makes both horny is good.

For dehumanisation we identify the slave with, and give it qualities of anything that isn't human.

Degredation and humiliation has to do with status. Forcing/ordering the slave to do something which we socially identify as being beneth her station.

When we objectify we treat the slave as nothing but a holder of sexual organs that we use.

My two cents

ps! my slave is pouring lube over her tits and rubbing them next to me. This is really hard to write....

cadence and anonymouse, you have given me more to think on. My thanks to you both for that. :)

And leave it to Tom to scatter the "bullshit" around. Oh, wait. That was his two cents, wasn't it? Or was it? I have images of oil-slick hands caressing the lush flesh of beautiful breasts wandering through my mind. His distractions are obviously most overwhelming.

TDS, it really was a mental pleasure putting thoughts together in order to answer your question. I'll be checking back to see what you have to add.

:wave:

Well... i have a couple of thoughts on this, especially since Master and i were talking about it...

BUT... i keep hoping ID will post and give the "definitions" like He does so well.... *grinz*

Quote:

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Originally Posted by precious{TDS}

BUT... i keep hoping ID will post and give the "definitions" like He does so well.... *grinz*

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~laughing~ i've been waiting for the exact same thing. ~looking around for ID and whispering~ i wonder what is taking him so long?

*bump*

I have always been miffed that this thread never got off the ground.
I was so hoping to hear others perspectives on this topic.
Seeing that there are a few new members here, I am hoping that this bump generates a few more posts.

:)

wow - I so agree cadence - my first thought though was WOW great AV lol

These are questions worth taking time to answer.

I'll be back hehe ;)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mastersgem

wow - I so agree cadence - my first thought though was WOW great AV lol

These are questions worth taking time to answer.

I'll be back hehe ;)

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One of his many great AVA's :D

And you are right... it was a great conversation and well worth a thought or two! Thanks for bumping it cadence!

First, is there a difference in humiliation, degradation, dehumanization, and objectification from the standpoint of a BDSM relationship?

If there is a difference, how do you define those differences?

From a BDSM standpoint, I believe there is, from my own, not so much - in my opinion, I just see them as varying levels of humiliations - the depth at which one seeks to be humiliated - some only want a little of one and others like to delve deep into the humiliation pool. Many people call the degradation and dehumanization side negative and wrong with BDSM (I've seen it posted on here as well). Truly I think they are only levels. I'm very sure even the lightest humiliation is seen by the vanilla's as negative also and we call them judgemental.

Maybe that's a better answer, depends on your judgement of each one.

- humiliation (verbal; being called a nasty slut while being taken type thing)

- degradation: (verbal; being called a worthless piece of fuckmeat on a very regular basis, programming to a deeper, constant level of humiliation type thing)

- objectification - (physical; being thought of as only an object, table, footstool, ashtray, being used like you have no animated thought)

- dehumanization - (physical; reducing the person to less than an animal state, without thought or regard the their feelings, an extreme state of humiliation)

Obviously from first to last, the last is a very intense form of humiliation and is what some people do seek from their life and what many others see as wrong. I don't think anyone can judge 'wrong' for anyone else, we don't know what turns on another, what another seems to crave to fulfill their own soul. And while complete dehumanization is not for me, I don't have to like it but also wouldn't judge it for another.


I am also curious as to how the perspective of orientation (Dom, Sub, Top, Bottom) affects the view of the use of this type of play in a BDSM relationship?

For me, they are exactly along the same lines as Sadist to masochist - there is an equal and opposite side to them all; and a person to match it to ;)

to my way of thinking if we're talking about a more permenant thing then no human being no matter how much they think and feel they want to go to the etreme in the long run would be able to mentally deal with it, to do that you'd have to 'break' a person and i personally only have one name for that...abuse.


so for what my opinions worth, outside of play i dont see how it can be as asked in the op integrated into a r/ship a part of the dynamic, i dont believe there is such a thing other than for those extremely unfortunate enough to have being such as long term hostages,holed up in extermination camps, or who have suffered real torture and the like and even then its taken years and much suffering to get to that.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TheDeSade

This is a rather involved question which has many facets and which, I hope, will lead to some deep thought, indepth discussion and solid information exchange.

In a conversation with precious we touched on the subject of objectification. The discussion was short, but it did start the mental gears turning. (Yes, there was smoke and a nauseous smell) As I pondered this several questions came to my mind.

First, is there a difference in humiliation, degradation, dehumanization, and objectification from the standpoint of a BDSM relationship?

If there is a difference, how do you define those differences?

Within those difference, if there are any, how does one incorporate these into a BDSM relationship and how does it affect the dynamic of that relationship?

I am also curious as to how the perspective of orientation (Dom, Sub, Top, Bottom) affects the view of the use of this type of play in a BDSM relationship?

Ok. . . . . I have my own opinions about this, but I am going to refrain from tossing them out until some others have put out a few thoughts. I want to use my thoughts and opinions to prod and tweak the discussion along.

TDS

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There is a difference.

I reject the wisdom of defining them.

Defining them draws a line between them, a boundary. It either is or is not this or that (humiliation or degradation, for instance). Reality is that there are grey areas between each, as one passes through the progression. Definitions, therefore, are misleading; and misleading, in an area that has the potential for hurt that this one does, is very dangerous.

Speaking from my experience, which is limited within the bounds of a true BDSM relationship (my Sir is my first and only true dom), I would have to say there are differences between each level.
As has been mentioned this would range widely from relationship to relationship, person to person. What I may find dehumanizing, someone else may only see as objectification.
In my previous relationships (non D/s mind you) my boyfriends honestly ranged within the bounds of objectification, humiliation, and dehumanization (the latter of which I'm still making efforts to overcome).
Personally I enjoy being used for sex or a hole to fuck by my Sir. However as much as I'd enjoy having my brains fucked out, I do enjoy the fact that He puts them back in. When a relationship becomes solely based around objectification (unless this is a noncommital play relationship) I could see it leaning towards a dehumanization aspect.
When a submissive person (it's possible to be submissive in relationships without being D/s) is consistantly told they are worthless, degraded, humiliated, and considered only good for one thing it can have a negative affect on their outlook for themselves. This lends to the idea of breaking, in my personal opinion.
While I may be enticed by the idea of being called a slut in the throes of passion, being denied permission to cum until I beg properly, or tied up and left in a corner if I've been a cheeky monkey...there is still a boundary of being treated properly after the punishment or play time. I know my Sir loves me and cares for me, even if we're playing or I'm being punished, and afterwards I'll be told that I'm a good girl (if I was). I think it's that knowledge that changes the perspective from abuse for the sake of abuse to something more.

I agree, like a little cbt to force me to do humiliating acts...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TheDeSade

First, is there a difference in humiliation, degradation, dehumanization, and objectification from the standpoint of a BDSM relationship?

If there is a difference, how do you define those differences?

---

I love all four of these things. You can imagine them as a series of overlapping circles- a Venn diagram of abuse.

Identifying them is pretty easy once you get the hang of it.

Degradation involves eliminating self-esteem, pride or status. It is the largest of the circles in this diagram. Basically all other actions in this sphere contain elements of degradation.

Humiliation typically involves other people and lowered standing amongst peers. It doesn't necessarily involve lowering of status and often feeds of the dichotomy between status and action- but often part of the pleasure is the idea of one's own loss of self-esteem.

Dehumanization involves ignoring essential human qualities and treating the submissive as if she did not have them. Pet play fits in here- eg. making a submissive scratch at the door if she wishes to be "let out" to use the washroom (the backyard).

Objectification is a form of dehumanization wherein the submissive is reduced in complexity and meaning to something very simple. Terms like "cumdump", meant to get across the idea that the submissive is simply a receptacle, generally are used in this way. In fact, receptaclization is a term I use to denote an even more specific subset wherein a submissive is used as a garbage pail or toilet. More innocently, this can also refer to submissives being used as furniture. It can also mean exactly what it means when used in regular society- the woman is seen as a purely sexual object with little or no other utility.

-IC