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I don't read snuff stories, but you know what I find interesting?
You can put any amount of blood and guts, homicide and suicide, into any book, movie, or tv show, and no one thinks much about it. Yet add sex, and it becomes a big fat taboo in many peoples' heads.
I believe this is due to the fact that most people do not enjoy the sight of guts and blood nor they commit homicide or contemplate suicide. But we all do have sex and to subconciously make the link between repulsive thoughts and the one thing most of us enjoy the most is just that, repulsive and revolting. This is the way our mind tells us that slaughter, murder and self killing are a no-no. A self preservation system, I suppose. One more reason it becomes exciting for those who fantasize about it,Quote:
Originally posted byAlex Bragi
You can put any amount of blood and guts, homicide and suicide, into any book, movie, or tv show, and no one thinks much about it. Yet add sex, and it becomes a big fat taboo in many peoples' heads.
Traditional Psychotherapy, particularly the Jungian branches, posits that there are deep linkages between violence and sexuality. Many individuals find that any degree of sexual arousal associated with dominance/submission or pain is more disturbing than they can handle. This is because of profound fears of loss of control. Therefore they will attempt to supress any associations that remotely involve BDSM. In reality, most of the population has, at certain levels, dominance/submission, sado-masochistic fantasies. These are usually revealed only during long term insight psychotherapy. As Psch changes from a field dominated by Insight Psychotherapy to a field dominated by Psychopharmacology this realization is being lost.
As we mature in our adult sexuality we begin to realize that our fantasies will not rule our lives. We can enjoy and take pleasure in our fantasies and use them to make our sexual relationships more exciting but we and not our fantasies are in control of our lives.
In our mind and in our writing we may posit terrible worlds filled with rape and torture (or the chastisement of subjugated females) but we don't act these fantasies out in the "real world" of commerce and education. We may stimulate our sex lives with some interesting games but we do not assault strangers on the street and make them subject to our desires. We are adults.
This complexity and nuance of our underlying biological urges is repugnant to people who feel that their lives are barely under control as is. If you have ever been flogged by a nun you will understand what I mean.
the well thought out and intelligent response provided by e e norcod, two things spring to mind:
Alas, there are some in our world who do not differentiate well between reality and fantasy ... fortunately, it is a small few , but there are too many stories and reports to deny the impact. It is truly reprehensible when some such as Pol Pot also have charismatic leadership qualities that enable them to gain positions of some authority.Quote:
but we don't act these fantasies out in the "real world" of commerce and education. We may stimulate our sex lives with some interesting games but we do not assault strangers on the street and make them subject to our desires.
I think the IRS and Revenue Canada may be full of people of that particular bent too, at least from my own personal experience :)
Second,
Heh heh, well said! A delightfully humourous punchline!Quote:
If you have ever been flogged by a nun you will understand what I mean.
Yes that minority exists who cannot distinguish reality from fantasy, they are, by definition, psychotics, mentally ill. However I have never seen any evidence that Pol Pot was driven to his madness by late 1950's issues of Playboy. And I do not believe that officials at Health Canada or the US IRS get their ideas from this website.
If you think about it, intercourse itself even when done with care and love in the traditional missionary position is a somewhat violent act. For most males to ejaculate, they must thrust with some force. It even looks violent.
On the receiving end, no matter how good it feels, how much love there is, the woman is still being penetrated, her body entered by
a foreign object.
The term intercourse implies an interchange, an equal exchange, but that is not truly what happens. The female gives nothing, penetrates nothing in traditional sex. She receives. She is penetrated. She is impregnated.
Nikki, interesting and valid points, but then what’s the attraction for violence in entertainment generally then? And why can you watch simulated murder at 8.30 every evening on tv, but have to wait until after 10.30 for sex? (On tv that is.) I’m not saying you’re wrong because you’re not, I’m just interested in your views. We really do live in a crazy world don’t we?
e.e., when you reply to something, you don’t muck around do you? Obviously you’re very well versed in the subject, far more so than I. Actually it may interest you to know, if you don’t already, that around one in eight people have a strong tendency towards bdsm, about the same ratio as homosexuality.
Fox, I couldn’t agree more, some people do have trouble differentiating between fantasy and reality for sure. Others just seem to convince themselves they are doing the right thing and therefore feel no compunction - I think you could refer to e.e. if you want a more in-depth discussion on that one.
Woodsman’sgame, I never quite looked at sex like that before, until you mentioned it, but yes, I guess it is a rather violent act towards women. On a lighter note, do you know that some psychologist believe that a man’s tie is symbolic of a collar and leash? Don’t you just love that!
:)
I believe that the attraction of violent content on TV and cinema is escapism. Again, it happens to other people, unreal people.
Ever notice that action heroes never go to the washroom?
Do you realize that the simulated violence, if real, would cripple the movie hero before the first 20 minutes of footage were through?
If TV and cinema portrayed violence in all its real scope it would be just too discusting to be marketable.
And if it was mixed with sex it would be too close to everyone's reality to be aired in public. It is no wonder that the best sex and violence viewing material comes from Japanese animation. Again, unreal.
This is an interesting thread. I agree with with Nikka on the 'sex and violence on the boob tube' thing and with woodsman'sgame on 'sex as seen by the woman'. I've often thought I'd like to be a woman -- the pay cut wouldn't bother me, but every time I think about the sex, I have to wonder "How can they DO that?" There, but for the grace of God...
Alex, I was fascinated to read what you had to say about "...around one in eight people have a strong tendency towards bdsm, about the same ratio as homosexuality." Maybe we should be living in Oz! Here in the U.S., it's about 6% for bdsm and 3% for homosexuality. Of course it largely depends upon how the survey is phrased.
... I have to think that they are two heads on the same coin.
We are, afterall, still animals; lifeforms evolved through chance to command of the earth. We, us humans, are the most deadly preadtory creatures that have ever crawled the surface of this planet. Violence is an instinct that we can not put away no matter how civilzed we think we have become.
Violence is exciting to us, it is the danger and adrenal rush that we all are born addicted to. SOme of us try to repress it and fear it. Others, ignore social constraints agaisnt it and join the small minority that revels in it, not comprehending why the rest of us frown upon thier actions. But none the less wherever you sit on the spectrum of human experience you feel something from violence.
Disagree? Do you watch sports? Do you not enjoy some physical or mental confrontations? Do you not watch your televised violence every other night on TV? Violence is one of the two primary motivating factors to your most basic survival instinct. Reactions to it are different from person to person, but all of us are compelled to it in some form. Why else do movies, books, art, literature, and music from all over the world and all times contain these themes?
The other side of this coin of survival is that of sex. Which is an act of violence when it is broken down to its most primal basics. Sexual partners are hunted for, chosen for various reasons that appeal to our hungers, the most primorial violence. The first union of sex draws blood from the female. Is not blood also the most comon resonator in violence?
What else is in our art through the ages? The images of the lighter side of the heart. Love, which at its most basic is only a softer term for lust. This is the procreative portion of human instinct. The beautiful and flowery side of our dual and linked nature.
Does anyone ever stop thier biological impulse towards sexual unions? Violence is also at that level. Always there lurking under the surface of our civilized society. Yet, we can not deny it.
Do we generally kill and rape one another with abandon, no. But we do rush through traffic, trying to pass as many other commuters as possible on our way home every night. To show our prowess and strength, through our skillful manipulation of our fantastic and deadly machines on the streets. When the computer or fax machine refuses to respond to your requests do you not try to adjust the attitude of the inanimate object with a slap or kick?
Can the princess, held captive by the dragon help herself but fall to the agressive advances of the knight who slays the beast? Of course, any story can flow to the whim of its author, but does the knight who has his testosterone adrenile peaked in the heat of battle and bloody death calmly ignore his other most driving need after plunging his sword into the dragon's flesh? Does this not only charge his desire for more intimate penetrations and conquests?
Violence and sexuallity are linked in our minds and souls. To maintain society for the benefit of all, we place restrictions upon wild abandon of both. So your 8:30 violent acts on the TV, are seperated artificially by televised temproal constraints with the other side of human nature.
The most emotianal experiences in the human condition are the results of sex and the results of violence; birth and death. Also, interestingly, birth is generally a violent event, whereas death is just as often a peaceful event.
SO get out there and mate and mangle you animals ;)
Just a hypothetical observation by one of us in touch with his instincts. Do I condone violence, no. Can I deny it lies within everyone of us, no; to do so is naive.
Love this thread, thanks,
~LT~
There is no way I can read or write a snuff story. I have never found the allure of death and I don't want to. Maybe I am being limited in literary scope but, if someone can explain to me why killing is erotic, I'd love to hear the explanation.
I have been unpleasantly surprised by bloody stories as well and have stopped reading them as soon as I reached those passages. Again, blood isn't sexual for me - including the blood of lost virginity. I received a request to write a story with the blood of lost virginity and I had a miserably time with it. I actually had to do it twice - the first time as a humorous encounter - to complete the story including a virginal rape scene!
Fill my PMs and email with private responses or help me out in replies to this post. I am baffled and I readily admit it.
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Originally posted by Alex Bragi
I don't read snuff stories, but you know what I find interesting?
You can put any amount of blood and guts, homicide and suicide, into any book, movie, or tv show, and no one thinks much about it. Yet add sex, and it becomes a big fat taboo in many peoples' heads.
Killing (in real life) in itself is not erotic at all. What may be erotic is the bdsm fantasy of overpowering a sub and taking her to that extreme. Or, in reverse, the fantasy of submitting without that most basic limit (staying alive) may turn on more that a few subs.Quote:
Originally posted by LaJan
Maybe I am being limited in literary scope but, if someone can explain to me why killing is erotic, I'd love to hear the explanation.
The most erotic moment in a snuff story is the moment of realization, when the sub finally recognizes that she is not going to make it out alive. Especially if she gets one last, final orgasm. The moment of death, after that, is almost inconsequential.
An interesting conjecture Nikka, bearing in mind your signature line, but I think I understand what you mean.Quote:
The most erotic moment in a snuff story is the moment of realization, when the sub finally recognizes that she is not going to make it out alive. Especially if she gets one last, final orgasm. The moment of death, after that, is almost inconsequential.
Nikka, you say
I don't agree. While I never have killed anyone or anything for or with pleasure, There are those who do derive significant pleasure form the act. Read the book "Hunting Humans" for a look inside the sociopathic mind of a serial killer. For some of our predatory fellow beings, the pleasure is not just in the hunt ... There is also an escalation in behaviour exemplifed by these "rogue" beings.Quote:
Killing (in real life) in itself is not erotic at all.
The animal kingdom has many examples of an animal killing for pleasure, especially a domestic animal. My dog has killed birds, for example. There is no way he did it for food; it was an instinctive reaction on his part (although wild kingdom in your living room is a little much to behold)
Erotic is in the mind of the beholder, and there is nothing more frightening than the human mind ...
Fox, I think you missed Nikka's point: killing is not erotic in real life. Your dog didn't kill to "get off". And, instinctually, the only things that kill their mates do it after being mated (like black widows). I've never seen a higher (than a spider) life form that kills its mate instinctually.
But thank you, Nikka. It never occured to me that the final seconds of the final scene in "Looking For Mr. Goodbar" could be considered erotic since she 'came and went' at the same time.
And though your point was made from the submissive reference point, I suppose the contrasting point is possible, too: a dom may become orgasmic at the second of killing during sex.
I'm glad I'm into rape fantasy because there's not going to be many multiple orgasms where the participants 'kill at first cum'...
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Originally posted by Fox
Nikka, you say
I don't agree. While I never have killed anyone or anything for or with pleasure, There are those who do derive significant pleasure form the act. Read the book "Hunting Humans" for a look inside the sociopathic mind of a serial killer. For some of our predatory fellow beings, the pleasure is not just in the hunt ... There is also an escalation in behaviour exemplifed by these "rogue" beings.
The animal kingdom has many examples of an animal killing for pleasure, especially a domestic animal. My dog has killed birds, for example. There is no way he did it for food; it was an instinctive reaction on his part (although wild kingdom in your living room is a little much to behold)
Erotic is in the mind of the beholder, and there is nothing more frightening than the human mind ...
It has been proved that domesticated animals (like humans), have corrupted instincts. If anything, studying domestic animals is a very good way of studying the effects of "civilization" on humans themselves. (I know that is a bit broad, but it is also one of the main principles of etology -the study of animal behaviour and its relation to humans-)Quote:
Originally posted by Fox
The animal kingdom has many examples of an animal killing for pleasure, especially a domestic animal. My dog has killed birds, for example. There is no way he did it for food; it was an instinctive reaction on his part
It is also true, as in this case, that the effort of procreating may lead to the demise of one of the mates, either for food for the surviving mate or for protection against cannibalism of the offspring. (note that the whole objective here is procreation and continuation of the species, if not the individual).Quote:
Originally posted byLaJan
...instinctually, the only things that kill their mates do it after being mated (like black widows).
Now for the big question... Can anyone see here a comparable need in humans?
It was not my intention to sidetrack the issue into the world of domestic animals. My apologies. I was using a personal example of how the act of killing will have different interpretations according to the individual involved.
Perhaps I should stick to the human species, as that is germane to the discussion.
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Now for the big question... Can anyone see here a comparable need in humans?
There are countless examples of people killing others and deriving sexual gratification. One only needs to look at some of the serial killers who have stalked society: Charles (?) Ng, who had a torture chamber and videotaped the murders; Ted Bundy; the Green River killer; the pig farmers in Vancouver who may be responsible for as many as 50 deaths; Gacy in Chicago who got off on murdering little boys, to name just a few. Did you know that law enforcement estimates at least 35 serial killers are active in North America today? (My apologies if I have the number wrong, I’m writing from memory sans current research.)
I’m blabbering, but I am sure you get the drift.
We are mammals. Like other mammalian predators, we have canine teeth designed to tear flesh. We have evolved into omnivores because of phycial attributes that would have resulted in our extinction otherwise - soft flesh, poor eyesite, poor sense of smell, etc.. We hunt and have always done so, for survival. Sexual selection was based on survival of the gene pool – the best hunters got laid the most because they provided. There is a very real, basic connection between sexual gratification and death in our species. We have “evolved” so that in our “civilized” state, we do not accept this connection as being “the norm”. Yet we are drawn to it nevertheless.
Popular media, especially American media, thrives on the association between death and sex. CSI Miami – hot young bodies murdered, the forensic team is … young, beautiful, intelligent, and not afraid of the autopsy room - they are, in fact, drawn to and fascinated by it CSI Las Vegas, the same except the cast is a few years older, but they play with S & M and fetishes. The Terminator and Matrix movies – leather and latex fashions, stylish wardrobes, sexy stars, lots of blood and gore and random violence. A Clockwork Orange by Kubrick blatantly connects sex and violence and death in a way the novel only hints at.
I’m going to stick my neck out here, and suggest that a great deal of the appeal to leather – treated animal hide – derives from this basic instinct. Certainly a great deal of the extreme S&M play is connected to the power play and control – to the point of life and death and the derived sexual appeal – over another.
As has been observed already, Nikka presents the case from the submissive perspective. The dominant – the one who is doing the killing – has an entirely different motivation, and I suggest that there is a tremendous erotic appeal to the power of taking someone’s life. Civilized people hunt for sport … we accept hunting certain species as “normal” – who’s to say that to a fan of snuff, hunting humans is not perfectly acceptable?
I would like to point out, by the way, that I am not a fan of snuff stories. I do not read them, and in general, do not like them. I accept that death is part of the natural order of things, and that violent death is also part of how life unfolds. Hence I have written and will continue to write death into my stories. I do not approve of the taking of a human life or an animal life for pleasure.
But I am very certain that it happens.
Ps. Alex, an intelligent thread. Thank you.
Pps. If memory serves me well, the French slang for orgasm is “la petite mort” – the little death.
That's what I needed: an unbelievably concise response. Fox, I was prepared to ‘man my guns’ as soon as the notification of your post came to my email. But, after reading your reply, I now see what you meant originally, and thus I see where the appeal of snuff stories can possible.
Odd that we completely agree about the wrongness of taking both human and animal life for sport when our views towards the world of snuff fantasy are so polar.
Regarding the mass murderers you mentioned, I see how their mention supports your position and it seems obvious now that I look at it that way. I guess what I was seeing as the primary thrust of my argument is the fact that the killers for sexual gratification do not enter anything into the gene pool and their existence in humanity is an aberration, not a norm. Looking at it that way, society tries to capture or kill the deviant individuals, not allow them to "get off" on their behaviour any longer than possible. That doesn't mean that they do not exist. As you pointed out, they surely do.
It was my own pre-judgmental revulsion with the moment of someone’s death being the moment of another sexual gratification that shielded me from a realization I still find it terrible to grasp.
What I had asked for in my first post, you have carefully expounded upon and brought me an (albeit revolting) understanding. Please accept my prior expostulating as merely the ranting of the yet-to-be enlightened.
But do not let my subjugation regarding unpleasant realities of life lure you into the false belief I will read or enjoy snuff stories, even as I have a deeper understand of their appeal. I still find this entire subject as revolting as I did before. For each, her (or his) own but thank goodness for the coding “snuff”.
PS Your PPS is accurate and, being French, I should have known that long before you pointed it out, damn it.
Quote:
Originally posted by Fox
It was not my intention to sidetrack the issue into the world of domestic animals. My apologies. I was using a personal example of how the act of killing will have different interpretations according to the individual involved.
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Now for the big question... Can anyone see here a comparable need in humans?
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As has been observed already, Nikka presents the case from the submissive perspective. The dominant – the one who is doing the killing – has an entirely different motivation, and I suggest that there is a tremendous erotic appeal to the power of taking someone’s life. Civilized people hunt for sport … we accept hunting certain species as “normal” – who’s to say that to a fan of snuff, hunting humans is not perfectly acceptable?
I would like to point out, by the way, that I am not a fan of snuff stories. I do not read them, and in general, do not like them. I accept that death is part of the natural order of things, and that violent death is also part of how life unfolds. Hence I have written and will continue to write death into my stories. I do not approve of the taking of a human life or an animal life for pleasure.
But I am very certain that it happens.
Ps. Alex, an intelligent thread. Thank you.
Pps. If memory serves me well, the French slang for orgasm is “la petite mort” – the little death.
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It was my own pre-judgmental revulsion with the moment of someone’s death being the moment of another sexual gratification that shielded me from a realization I still find it terrible to grasp.
Yes, I think it’s the ultimate form of a self-absorbing and selfish fantasy. Sure I understand the need many people have for self-abasement in sexual ways, but snuff I’m still struggling with.
I think the problem I may have, and perhaps others too, is that homicide almost always has a motivation that I can understand, and some kind of justification I can reason with, e.g. revenge, self defense, etc. Snuff on the other hand is totally self-indulgent.
Maybe the enjoyment some people derive from these stories is the thrill of being on edge? I remember when I was a kid and knew I was about to be punished, the adrenaline always seemed to run higher just before the spanking, rather than during or after it.
That's why they call it "fiction", isn't it? The ability to express through written form any and all emotions coursing through the writer's head is one feature of posting. Few, if any, would ever contemplate actually acting out their fictious designs. IQuote:
Maybe the enjoyment some people derive from these stories is the thrill of being on edge
t's sort of like taking other work literally. These same types pattern their very lives from what they see on TV/movies, read in stories, etc.
If snuff is to be incorporated in fiction here, or anywhere else for that matter, clear disclaimers should preface each story to avoid such misunderstanding by the too gullible. The writer can then produce whatever for mature consumption, knowing well that neither he nor she, nor the reader, intend on actually believing what is never meant to actually see the light of day.
I don’t’ believe I’m ‘too gullible’ I just don’t happen to enjoy these kinds of stories, for the reasons I've already given. Damn it, of course I understand the difference between fact and fiction, and I’m confident all but a few do.Quote:
If snuff is to be incorporated in fiction here, or anywhere else for that matter, clear disclaimers should preface each story to avoid such misunderstanding by the too gullible.
Yes, and I think a truly talented writer of fiction is able to suspend a reader’s believe of reality for a time. Its like when I read a well written story with a sad ending, I might have little cry, but it doesn’t mean I think what ever it was that set me off really occurred. Crazy isn't it? I kind of 'enjoy' a good sad story every so often.Quote:
The writer can then produce whatever for mature consumption, knowing well that neither he nor she, nor the reader, intend on actually believing what is never meant to actually see the light of day.
I guess anything to do with human thinking and/or behavior is always going to be a very complex issue. The bottom line is everyone is different, and really would we want it any other way? :)