If you like it is it punishment?

During the pain thread several people mentioned or at least I understood it to mean that when they are punished they enjoy that form of pain. To me a punishment is an act that causes negative reinforcment of a behavior. By that I mean that if you do something wrong a consequence is chosen that will encourage you not to repeat that offense, i.e. spanking. To me if you get pleasure from the punishment that defeats the intended purpose. One could argue then that you may misbehave to intentionally get punished. In the case of one sub I had who liked spankings I would not spank her as punishment.

Perhaps I have misunderstood the meaning of several different people. Then again there may be a new way of looking at this I have not considered would appreciate any feedback.

Very valid points. There are many who look forward to a "punishment", perhaps using that term to define a spanking or something else they are seeking. However, being totally literal and anal sometimes - yes, I know, I am - using the word "punishment" doesn't work for me.

For me, it's simple.

A punishment should be something the person doesn't like.

A reward is something they do like.

For example:

I wouldn't ever reward a pain slut with pain. Heck, I might make them write an essay, take away their toys, or other things that would be considered a "real" punishment. If I was feeling particularly mean, they may be forced to watch someone else get the type of play that they wish they were experiencing.

I would however reward a pain slut with a spanking or other form of pain for good behavior or our mutual pleasure.

Another example:

If my sub was a gamer, I may punish them by taking away their games. (No electronics for a set period of time.)
Ouch!
(This punishment actually works well for my teen boys.)

That said:

There are many couples here on the forums, that use the word "punishment" to mean or describe their play time together. "I was such a naughty boy/girl, master punished me last night and I loved it!!!" Yet, there is no actual punishment involved as they are both enjoying whatever activity they have chosen.

I agree with Ruby on all the points! (Just felt I need to say that! :p )

I agree with Ruby also Red.

Always with words of value from a wise Ruby.

I would not use something a submissive enjoys as a punishment. What would be the point of that? If you allow a submissive to have something they enjoy in return for doing something bad or wrong, then how does that discourage the behavior from happening again in the future?

Bottom line: If they don't enjoy it, I'm not doing it to them. If I don't enjoy it, it's not getting done to me. That seems to me like the difference between abuse and bdsm, but obviously others don't agree, so I won't pass judgement on those who feel that way.

Well said duktig flicka. I don't think there is anyone here who wouldn't agree with what you said. We arn't talking about using punishment to inflict abuse, or to excuse abusive actions.

There is a difference between abuse and punishment, and at times there can be a fine line.

That's where safe words come into play, and only play with someone your comfortable with.

To punish someone, you don't make them do something, or do something to them that they like. If the person being punished is a pain slut, you don't do anything that would cause pain as a form of punishment, you use an alternative. If that person dosn't like cooking, then get them to cook a banquet feast for example. That is punishing the person, not abusing them.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Caitlin

To punish someone, you don't make them do something, or do something to them that they like. If the person being punished is a pain slut, you don't do anything that would cause pain as a form of punishment, you use an alternative. If that person dosn't like cooking, then get them to cook a banquet feast for example. That is punishing the person, not abusing them.

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Exactly. Especially about the MAKING them do something part. No one, dominant or otherwise, can MAKE someone do something they do not want to do. And if they did, then that is certainly abuse!

I rarely use painful punishments. In my personal opinion, a well created and imaginative punishment that fits the situation is far more effective.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by duktig flicka

Bottom line: If they don't enjoy it, I'm not doing it to them. If I don't enjoy it, it's not getting done to me. That seems to me like the difference between abuse and bdsm, but obviously others don't agree, so I won't pass judgement on those who feel that way.

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I suppose that a precondition for punishment is an agreement or even contract between the persons involved, that one submits to the other’s will and instructions in some specific areas beyond topping and bottoming in their erotic play. Or even in the context of a full time D/s relationship. If that precondition is not given, the concept of ‘punishment’ seems nil and void, even absurd, I think? (I am talking about people who are physically together here, not internet relationships.) And even if the D/s aspect of a relationship spills into areas beyond the erotic realm, this does not necessarily mean that one ever punishes the other! I think that people who keep the BDSM aspect of their life strictly inside their playtime have no use for punishments. Or do they? Where is the authority to reward and punish if it has not been given?

Now I am wondering whether formal rewards and punishment would make sense at all for couples who switch regularly? :dunno:


As has been mentioned above, pseudo-punishment can be invoked as a creative play pretext.

A: ‘Hold them and don’t let a drop of wax fall to the floor.’ Puts candles into B's outstretched hands and lights them.
B: grunts acquiescence behind gag.
A: proceeds to tickle B under arms with feather duster.
B: utterly fails to comply with the no wax drops rule.
A: ‘Miserable creature. Now you will feel my wrath.’
B: smirks and bends over.

Punishment is not defined as the tool used for punishment; rather, it is the intent of the tool that defines it.

The exact same act could be administered and could achieve the reward status or the punishment status. If the sub knows the act is meant as a reward, he or she should enjoy it. If the sub knows this is a result of bad judgement, misbehaviour or a mistake and the intent is to punish, it will not be enjoyable.

The worst punishment this one ever went through, did not include things this one doesn't enjoy - rather, it was far more punishing for one's Master to take something she usually loves, and form a punishment with it. It was as if he was removing that pleasure completely and making it a painful experience.

Other times, He would simply ignore this one, which hurt far more. Other times still, this one was made to stand facing a corner and not move or speak for an hour. For this one, it was practically torture.

For the Dom/mes - never underestimate the self-punishment a slave goes through when they know they have wronged You. Chances are, their self-punishment and guilt will be far more painful than any punishment You can administer.

The important thing to remember is to shape the punishment in such a way that the pain and tears are left behind and only the lesson and desire to learn from the mistake is carried forward. This important point is followed by the deal-and-move method. Deal with the error, then move on. Too often, relationships (whether D/s or not) are broken when the same errors are brought up - a constant punishment for both parties involved. Deal with it, then move on and express Y/your care and concern for the O/other.

Crimson, excellent advice.

Thank you, crimson. These points are all very perceptive and should be taken to heart.

crimson,
Excellent explanation and interpretation of the different ways punishment can be administered.

Crimson said most of what I wanted to add, and I'm glad no one sees it as a contradiction of the points made earlier. A word, a look ... can sting as much as the whip. And a spanking done as a punishment, to a sub who relies on Master's approval and happiness for her/his own pleasure and sense of worth, is a miserable sub indeed ... now even the spanking s/he enjoyed is robbed of its joy and the pleasure has to await forgiveness.

Personally, however, I'm not sure when I would employ a spanking as punishment. I prefer punishment that is corrective as well as unpleasant. If it is merely unpleasant it seems to me to be less valuable. For example, a sub who has spoken out of turn may have to deal with a punishment that denies her/him the right to speak for a period of time; or if s/he has been thoughtless and careless and broken something may be denied some other privilege while s/he goes about repairing it. And so on.

her_Joe

How can it be a punishment if one likes it?
Punishment of the heart and mind is often the most effective.

personally speaking, even though i like a good spanking there are certain implements that i do NOT like. While i don't mind the flogger and enjoy it throughly, i hate the cane and, at times, just the suggestion of it makes me correct my misbehavior. An effective, well thought out punishment for me combines both mental and physical.

For example, after a session Master will hold and cuddle me... if the session was done as punishment He will not and that hurts much more than the marks on my body.

just my .02!

Couldn't agree more with all of your opinions, as long as the 'punishment' spoken about refers to punishment in 'lifestyle' D/s (I hope I'm getting the terms right here!)

But isn't there another side of it -- 'punishment play', so to speak? When the misdeed is done in a playful manner, as is the 'you've been a bad girl' punishment? It can be a very erotic form of play, but of course it's just play. For a scene. Not applicable to the TPE lifestyle.

I think I've gone in circles.. :dunno: