What do we mean by sadist?

I got a bit confused (as I often do!) when chatting about sadists.

One of my "bibles" about bdsm (found at seekers.org.uk) includes the following definition in its terminology section:

"Sadism. A technical term in psychology introduced in about 1838 for obtaining pleasure from the unhappiness of another. This is not related to the pleasure of a BDSM Top who desires the Bottom to feel pleasure. Sadism has no place in BDSM. The word is derived from the name of the author of sadistic stories, Compte (D.A.F.) De Sade (1740-1814), better know as the Marquise de Sade. The evidence suggests that he was a BDSMer but not a sadist. Sadist. 1. A technical term in psychology, now little used, of no relevance to BDSM. 2. A term sometimes, incorrectly, used for a BDSM Top, especially one who gives pain." (I hope I have followed the rules about posting from elsewhere).

I realise that may be a "traditionalistic" or "conservative" view or definition, and that some here at the library may have "more liberal" viewpoint - nether viewpoint/opinion/etc. being more right or wrong than the other of course.

But it does very much confuse me that lots of people seem to think that a "good Dom" should also be a (bit of a?) sadist? I'm trying hard to learn how to be a "good Dom" and I derive pleasure when a sub enjoys what I am doing (it's a huge high) which includes delivering pain which she enjoys (up to the level I'm happy with).

What I can't do is be a "sadist" and enjoy inflicting that pain when the sub doesn't enjoy it. That doesn't mean that if it's the only option available I would never punish corporally - I'd be punishing myself at the same time though.

Any comments please?

VV

Dear Sir, i am just an ignorant girl, but if i may speak, i name sadist a person who finds sexual pleasure in torturing or humiliating other persons. If somebody is cruel, it doesn't mean that he/she is a sadist.
My sweet Mistress is a sadist, no doubt. She gets aroused by whipping me to bleed or making me lick up her spit. At the same time she is a tender lover.

In this respect, I'll stick solely to the Oxford English definition.

http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/sadism

I'm a sadist, very much so. I like to take things to extremes, a lot. But to say it doesn't belong in the BDSM world....I would have snorted at that definition and carried on looking around. The only time I would absolutely 100% say that sadism has no place in BDSM is when it's exercised with no control.

Examples, I guess. My kitten isn't a masochist, at all. But I'll still take a cane to him when we play. Because I enjoy hearing his whimpers, and on good days I enjoy seeing him tear up a little. His pain threshold isn't high, so it doesn't take much. But I'm always looking for that boundary, where it's too much, and to go further would cause him serious damage. And then I look after him. I'm still deriving a great deal of pleasure from his pain, but I'm not taking it beyond reasonable limitations.

On the other hand, when I first started out I made the mistake of playing with strangers, and drew the short straw when a guy turned out to be a sadist without that control. He bust up my cheekbone, my jaw, dislocated my hips and fractured three vertebrae in my spine. I learned my lesson big time that day, and I still cope with the consequences of foolish actions.

There's a fine line between sadism and abuse. Self control makes the person. When I say "I take things to extremes", a lot of people jump to crazy conclusions of vicious and violent practices. I had one person ask me whether I really used katanas in foreplay once o_O. But it's not my extremes I'm taking things to, it's my partner's.

I've been thinking about this a lot lately. I do think there is a place for sadists (I mean, where else??) in BDSM as long as they keep control of themselves, as Emeyuchi says.

When my Master tells me he enjoys beating me he says it's because of where it takes me, that's the part that he enjoys, and he says if I were hating it entirely he wouldn't get anything out of it. He doesn't want to go to extremes, he wants to go just far enough. So he's not a sadist. We have been mulling this over.

*leaves a big box of chocolates out as a thank you to those who responded, and of course everyone else who is quick enough after those have eaten their fill*

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Originally Posted by VeniVidi

*leaves a big box of chocolates out as a thank you to those who responded, and of course everyone else who is quick enough after those have eaten their fill*

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I have mine, Sir, thank You. It was delicious. :p

You said you think you need to be a sadist to be a good Dom and I don't think that is true. I have met plenty of great Doms who do not get pleasure out of causing the submissive pain. They may use it as punishment, or just be into more sensual sensory play...there are so many other options. Personally I am a masochist so I want I Dom that enjoys causing me pain (which is how I define a sadist), I don't think thats what makes those people good Doms I think it is what makes them good Doms for me.

So yeah when I think of someone as a sadist I think of someone who gets pleasure from causing pain, not as some sort of punishment and not a little spanking and pulling of the hair. A Dom (or Domme) who is actually getting off on seeing me in real pain.

Oooh, how did I miss the chocolates before?

The Marquis de Sade was said to involve himself in sexual violence. I don't necessarily think of sadists as being sexually violent...but maybe that's my own delusion.

The question I have is, does the sexual sadist gain pleasure from the infliction of pain...no matter if the one receiving the pain is willing or not willing?

*gives some chocolates to brwneydgirl as she was obviously paying attention and passes her question to the next contributors*

I would say yes, they would, in my definition of sadism. Not being a sadist, I don't know for sure. An ethical sadist would get consent first though.

Oh yeah,
The feeling of omnipotence when dealing with a totally submissive thing - it's very heart surging. The power thing is very strong, especially when remorse is not an option.

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Originally Posted by VeniVidi

*gives some chocolates to brwneydgirl as she was obviously paying attention and passes her question to the next contributors*

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xxoo

Ya.
Wouldn't we be suited?

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Originally Posted by brwneydgirl

The question I have is, does the sexual sadist gain pleasure from the infliction of pain...no matter if the one receiving the pain is willing or not willing?

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Complex question, I think. Maybe that depends on the person. Of course, the ethical answer is no good sadist gets pleasure from an unwilling person, but is that merely political correctness? Is the answer a little more complicated? Many people have fantasies - maybe masturbation fantasies, but nevertheless - about non-consensual sessions, which migt also include pain. To read about and fantasize about, but never to be done in real life? And some have the profile of seeing how much the sub, not neccesarily into pain at all, can and will take for their Master/Mistress? That is not non-consensual, but maybe not 'willing' as in 'enjoying pain' either. Consensual in that the person will try to please the Master/Mistress.

To me it is clear that a person tormenting an unwilling victim is a criminal, as much as a rapist is a criminal and not a lover. But what may happen between two people in the BDSM world is a more complex thing.

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Originally Posted by thir

Complex question, I think. Maybe that depends on the person. Of course, the ethical answer is no good sadist gets pleasure from an unwilling person, but is that merely political correctness? Is the answer a little more complicated? Many people have fantasies - maybe masturbation fantasies, but nevertheless - about non-consensual sessions, which migt also include pain.

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I agree with you in everything. I have masochist fantasies where i am accused in a shop with theft. Security guards torture me until i admit the crime, and after that they punish me painfully and shamefully in front of all customers. Shop assistants and customers accompany them in torturing me. It would be a crime in real life, but i love these fantasies.

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Originally Posted by thir

some have the profile of seeing how much the sub, not neccesarily into pain at all, can and will take for their Master/Mistress?

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I find this to be a fascinating idea. The submissive willing to see "how much they can take" for their dominant. Are there those, though, who actually get off on pain? I mean...I know there are masochists but do they physically derive pleasure from pain (and in that case, do they take anesthesia for dental procedures?) or is it more that they take pleasure from the pleasure they see in their dominant when they've "taken" a significant amount of pain? What is the feeling the submissive receives? Physical pleasure? Is it a feeling of "see how tough I am?" ?

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Originally Posted by brwneydgirl

What is the feeling the submissive receives? Physical pleasure? Is it a feeling of "see how tough I am?" ?

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I was a kid about 6 years when i was already excited about torture scenes. As an adolescent i fantasized about being whipped topless in the school yard or rolled in thorny shrubs by my schoolmates naked. My arousal didn't come from love to my torturers, as it doesn't come from love to the security guards in my above mentioned fantasies. Nor comes the sexual arousal simply from the pain, the dentist's treatment or a headache. It comes, as i see it, from the feeling of being submitted to torture, having the pain inflicted on me intentionally. In the case of my love relationship with my sweet Mistress, love increases the pleasure of painful submission. But humiliation is necessary. It is the way at least in my case.

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Originally Posted by dorolta

I agree with you in everything. I have masochist fantasies where i am accused in a shop with theft. Security guards torture me until i admit the crime, and after that they punish me painfully and shamefully in front of all customers. Shop assistants and customers accompany them in torturing me. It would be a crime in real life, but i love these fantasies.

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Yees.....;-)

First, to get the definitions out of the way: there are words we use in our community which are different from the ways they are defined by muggles, such as "dominance" or "slavery." "Sadist" is one of those. Like "slavery," the main difference between our usage and the one in the dictionary is that ours assumes mutual informed consent.

Apart from that, the definition is the same: one who takes pleasure in inflicting pain. And yes, brwney, some people do get off on pain, I've been there too. When I first tried bottoming, I tried to handle it as`something I was enduring to please my Domme, which didn't work well. But when I learnt to stop trying to be tough, to sob and beg and accept her right to hurt me, then the pain became part of the joyful experience of submission.

Physically speaking, yes, I am told that experienced pain-sluts can get high on the endorphin rush of pain, the same way that exercise addicts do, but it still needs to be in the right emotional setting - "the right sort of pain," as I've often heard subs say. It is a BDSM cliche that nobody ever got off on stubbing their toe, and I've never heard of anyone who chose not to have pain relief at the dentists' (despite the character in "Little Shop of Horrors.) But when I had a hot female dentist I did occasionally get through some really nasty proceedures by fantasising that I was being tortured by a Domme: it didn't turn me on, but it made it easier to bear.

For me, sadism works the same way. Hurting a sub is enjoyable in exactly the same way that making hir crawl and obey me is enjoyable, they are both expressions of my power over hir. Causing pain is just more direct and physical, like the difference between fucking and exchanging words of love.

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Originally Posted by brwneydgirl

Are there those, though, who actually get off on pain? I mean...I know there are masochists but do they physically derive pleasure from pain (and in that case, do they take anesthesia for dental procedures?) or is it more that they take pleasure from the pleasure they see in their dominant when they've "taken" a significant amount of pain? What is the feeling the submissive receives? Physical pleasure? Is it a feeling of "see how tough I am?" ?

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I think there are all kinds of answers to that one! I once know a person who was into heavy pain, and who did get off on it. All kinds of pain, including an accident he had, where he broke several ribs and had internal injuries. He said he wished he could have prolonged that, or done it again. Though most people I have talked with were into some kinds of pain, and not others. Most did not like dentist pain, or headaches, or such, but liked pain which for them had a sexual effect. My other husband was a piercer earlier, and I noticed then how many liked being pierced, for instance, and wished they could do it over and over again. Many like the pain in connection with a specific situation and can get off in that situation, a woman I knew climaxed while being spanked or whipped, and it is my impression that this is not that unusual. I compare it to fetichism, because like with fetichist the magic is that it works every time.

I have met people who did the 'I am pushing myself to the limit' thing which you also mention. People of a tribal orientation who did this outside of a bdsm situation. For myself, I get a spirtual cleansing out of a serious beating going right up to, and a little over, my limits. I also take pain as pleasing my Dom, and it does excite me. But I do take painkillers for head aches, and other illness induced pain ;-)

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Originally Posted by dorolta

I was a kid about 6 years when i was already excited about torture scenes.

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Me too! I had some books about pirates that I got that special thrill from.

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As an adolescent i fantasized about being whipped topless in the school yard or rolled in thorny shrubs by my schoolmates naked. My arousal didn't come from love to my torturers, as it doesn't come from love to the security guards in my above mentioned fantasies. Nor comes the sexual arousal simply from the pain, the dentist's treatment or a headache. It comes, as i see it, from the feeling of being submitted to torture, having the pain inflicted on me intentionally.

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Exactly so. And it's the bottom's submission to the pain I inflict, hir helpessness in bondage or hir obedient acceptance of punishment, that makes it exciting for me as a Dom. If I hurt someone by accident, I'll apologise even if it's my sub: it wouldn't be enjoyable for either of us.

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In the case of my love relationship with my sweet Mistress, love increases the pleasure of painful submission.

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And for me as a Dom. I can whip casual play partners and enjoy it, but it's a pale imitation of the joy of making a loved one suffer for my pleasure.

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But humiliation is necessary. It is the way at least in my case.

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I'm guessing you need it to make you fully aware that you're the helpless one, the one who must and should take whatever pleases your Mistress, so that you can get into that joyful acceptance of suffering that I discovered.

It's all about who can do it, and who submits to having it done.

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Originally Posted by thir

I once know a person who was into heavy pain, and who did get off on it. All kinds of pain, including an accident he had, where he broke several ribs and had internal injuries. He said he wished he could have prolonged that, or done it again.

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Here you taught me something i didn't know. Thank you very much!

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Originally Posted by leo9

And it's the bottom's submission to the pain I inflict, hir helpessness in bondage or hir obedient acceptance of punishment, that makes it exciting for me as a Dom.

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Thank you for the understanding analyse, Sir, and showing me the dominant side of the issue. I am in full agreement with you.

sadism is enjoying inflicting pain and bdsm is more about enjoying taking power away from a person. i think. imo