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Where you see sadness, I find beauty and hope. I think it's wonderful, nigh on miraculous when shame can be transformed into love and strength. Just the fact that someone's willing to try to overcome the tragic events of their past garners my respect.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex Bragi
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Originally Posted by mythicat
I'm not sure I quite understand what you mean here. How can shame be transformed into love and strength? And what does someone trying to overcome the tragic events of their past have to do with submission?
One of the "motivations for engaging in submissive behavior" that Alex mentioned in her post is "working through issues of shame". I would have to agree, as I have seen this in more than one submissive (of both sexes) and might even fess up to a bit of it myself on a warm day. ;) Where do these issues come from? Sometimes guilt about the desire to engage in BDSM activities, contrary to what the person had been taught. Sometimes guilt about other desires pertaining to sexuality or intimacy. But sometimes the feelings can also come from abuse suffered during a person's life, especially childhood.Quote:
Originally Posted by BDSM_Tourguide
Abuse is generally a form of n/c power exchange. Someone at some time took away their power to protect themselves and something horrible resulted. That's a tough one for our psyches because it instantly desolves some of the most basic things we need to be mentally and socially healthy...trust, a feeling of safety...ideally some of the very first things the brain ever learned in infancy. Now suddenly, that data registers as incorrect. A good lesson if you're trying to survive a seriously bad situation. But hard to shake once the situation changes.
One of the things a good, healthy, SSC power exchange relationship can offer a submissive in this case is exactly what was taken away. Safety, security, a place where trust can be renewed. The brain can be re-taught that it's okay to be "helpless" without anything bad happening. Through the patient guidance of a loving dominant, a broken sub can find healing for the things which are fixable and acceptance for the things which might be here to stay. A good dominant can provide a protected space where something that was previously tainted with bad memories can be reexamined with adult eyes and recaptured as something positive.
An example? I have a close friend who was orally raped as a child by her grandfather. Needless to say she was unable to give head. It was something she very much wanted to overcome, just on the principal that the old dead bastard not continue affecting her life. Sure, a vanilla boyfriend/husband could eventually work through that issue with her. But the very nature of a D/s relationship is already structured to mentor the sub through something like that. Afterwards she was stronger for having come out the other side so to speak. And her relationship with her Dom deepened, not just for the obvious reason :D, but because he walked with her through that fire. Shame transformed into strength and love through the miracle of BDSM.
Ok, this is long enough without knowing if I'm making things clearer or not. Did any of that ramble help explain my previous post?
PS-I didn't get into the Dom side of this dynamic because the question was about submission. So no "budwaddabout"s. :p
That's what I thought you meant by that, mythicat. That's why I'm splitting this off into another discussion, because I feel this is a conversation that can easily enough hold itself.
In my (nearly professional) opinion, the person in your example probably would have benefited more from therapy than BDSM. BDSM is not a tool to push aside, replace or hide from feelings of guilt, shame or insecurity. Granted, a lot of people in this lifestyle feel guilt because they are doing it, shame for not conforming to the societally-accepted "norm" and insecurity steeming from issues in their past or uncertainty as to how a BDSM relationship should be run or treated.
However, using a power-exchange relationship or a BDSM dynamic to work through feeling and issues from past abuses, rather than talking to someone objective and not in an assumed position of authority is probably not the best way to work through these issues in a healthy way. Certainly, a BDSM relationship can provide a "secure-feeling" atmosphere, but that might actually be a bad thing to those that have been raped, abused, neglected or domineered by a parent or significant other. The belief systems of people experiencing these types of traumas in their past are skewed to begin with; it's natural for abuse to cause one to believe that the abuse is "right" and anything else is wrogn for them. So, a person coming from an environment of trauma might feel perfectly safe and secure in a BDSM relationship, but that might not be how they should feel.
Dealing with old traumas is hard and unconfortable; covering them up with BDSM is only potentially icing over a poorly-cooked cake. In other words, everything on the surface looks good, but when you poke around underneath the surface, even if by accident, the center is still bad. So, a feeling of safety and security when trying to find relationships or deal with problems might be attractive, but is probably not what is wanted since the safe feeling might only be a mask.
It is not uncommon these days to see people desperately trying to deal with trauma in their lives by turning to partners or realtionships in which they feel more comfortable, but turn out to be mirrors of the abuses they suffered before. It also seems to not be uncommon for people to run to the internet for advice on these matters which, unfortunately, is probably going to wind up doign them more harm than good. Finally, it is also common for people to begin to seek out other kinds of relationships like BDSM or a same-sex relationship to try and find something different for themselves that will make them feel more secure, rather than actually dealing with the trauma behind their problems.
Quite frankly, anyone that takes advantage of a person trying to overcome past abuses by offering them situation to confuse or subvert the issues is just as bad, in my opinion, as the abusers themselves. Being tied to a St Andrew's Cross, whipped and told what a nasty slut you are is not the best way to restore your confidence, even if the relationship is SSC. That type of activity can only serve to confuse the subconsciuos even farther and make it all the harder for the abused person to find the help they really need.
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…can easily turn out to be fine submissives, or they can turn into one of the other six types mentioned here.
T.G., this it is the exact portion of your posting I didn’t agree with. It’s the bit that miffed me. Yes, I understand exactly what you are saying with regard to a ‘true’ submissive – they’re predisposed sexually and socially. However, I still feel rather strongly that every type of submissive is attractive to a dominant of some variety. Sure enough, some will be sort after by more for one or another reason – attractiveness, age, willingness, experience, in fact a whole range of reasons. None, however, in my opinion, is better or worse - just different. Maybe we must agree to disagree on this one?
mythicat,
Interesting, very interesting. I hadn’t really considered that angle before.
Your friend was very fortunate to find healing with her dom, but I’m not so sure that’s a typical outcome. I truly believe most people in that situation need a good psychiatrist, not a dominant. I think also, there are a lot of sickos out here only too willing to take advantage of a person in such a vulnerable state of mind.
I am in full agreement that there are plenty of predators out there and that psychiatry/psychology is usually a good basis to seek mental and emotional wellness from. However, in her case her Dom is her loving husband who has no desire to "take advantage of a person in such a vulnerable state of mind"...nor did/does she have a particularly vulnerable mind in the first place. She had every right to want to get rid of that hang-up and no shrink could have done it for her (without losing his license!:D).
I don't think BDSM is a substitute for psychiatry, but by the same token sometimes psychiatry is no substitute for a safe and loving relationship built on trust and acceptance. Depending on the problem, medication and conversation only go so far. Any good doctor or therapist, with no fee to lose by saying it, will tell you that after that it's up to you. They give you advice, perspective, a (supposedly) objective sounding board, and if they deem it necessary a prescription to help even the playing field.
I'll be the first to tell a person to try counseling if they can afford it. I'll even tell them to try different types of counseling if it doesn't help the first time. I'm a big fan of how much psychology and psychiatry have to offer. But they don't offer everything. They're still fairly new and constantly evolving sciences which utilize as much art and intuition as true scientific methodology. I've also seen a few instances where therapists did much more harm than good with their recommendations. They're human too. Therefore I'm also willing to see a person try other things when counseling and medication continue to fail them.
But you must also realize that for a person from a background of trauma to form a safe and loving relationship based on trust and acceptance is nearly impossible.Quote:
Originally Posted by mythicat
A great number of people with abusive backgrounds have trust issues and can never form a "normal" relationship. And what feels safe and loving for a person that has been abused is otfen abuse.
It's when these people are shown kind, caring relationships that they begin to feel uncomfortable.
I'm happy that your friend found a good relationship and that things worked out for her, but she is one of the very, very few for whom things do work out.
Also, there are licensed sex therapists that can help with sexual problems and not lose their licenses. :)
I understand that people who had abusive childhoods or who were attacked at some point can have trust and intimacy issues. It'd be weird if they didn't after something like that. But to assume that it's "nearly impossible (for them) to form a safe and loving relationship" I think underestimates man's ability to adapt and survive. While I do know of cases where people who had been abused did keep spiraling out of control and repeatedly getting themselves in bad situations and relationships (2 of them in spite of extensive therapy, I might add), the majority of the people I've known who had a traumatic background turned out pretty normal...as far as normal can be defined. They arent serial killers or rapists, they don't molest children or abuse their spouses, and on average they've formed stable relationships with both friends and lovers/mates. Some of them have had therapy, some haven't. Most of the ones who went through some kind of therapy said it helped "a little" and I know one who says it helped "a LOT". (And it really did!) Overall I'd say they run the gamut of mental health, but skewed toward the positive end of the scale. But then again maybe the people I've encountered have been exceptions to the rule, and there's a much greater number who turned out really crazy and avoid human contact altogether or who acted out and got themselves locked up. That's the problem with collecting data, results are tainted by who gets polled and who doesn't. *nod*
(There aren't too many licensed sex therapists. Last I heard, even schools that offer an advanced degree in sexology are extremely rare in the US. Plus I'm sure a lot of people would feel very uncomfortable seeking out such a therapist even if they were able to find one in their area.)
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Originally Posted by BDSM_Tourguide